Is it time to make Porn illegal

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Doom427
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#21 Post by Doom427 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:31 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:17 pm

I mean, we can go into how every every capitalist industry views people as commodities and abuses them, and yes most industries are evil, but they can at least provide objectively good things to benefit society. Is it really a bad thing if there's no industry that trains partakers to view people as sexual objects.
Why is porn not an objective good? And what makes other industries an objective good? I was going to mention specifics, but I don't really want to engage in whataboutism- just saying that I don't see why Porn is viewed as something that needs to be outlawed.

Ok, to engage a bit in this, why not sports? Sports are a lot more normalizezd, hurt their performers A LOT more, encourage more violence, ect. ect...
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:17 pm
I respect the opinion that porn is needed to provide people with sex-ed, but from what I've heard from testimonies of ex-porn addicts and sex workers, porn is getting more and more violent, abusive, and I don't really think it's the best thing for young kids to be using for sex-ed.
Well, I mean more that porn provides a way to understand and process desires, not a basic education about what sex is and how it works. Also, as far as violent and abusive goes, well, what does that mean? Are we talking about just basic BDSM practices? Are we talking about snuff films? Because I do think snuff films should probably not be normalized, sure. But someone ***removed b/c webdiplomacy does not need details***? I mean people do want that outside of porn- and I don't see a problem with people sharing representations of people doing that.
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:17 pm
Onlyfans is perhaps a less abusive method of porn, I could see an argument to let that stay legal, but any form of pimping out other people should basically be banned.

Trafficking and deepfakes may be illegal, but they thrive because people don't care because they want their porn whatever the source. I get that the more strict you are in outlawing these, the more underground and dangerous it will go, but I want it to be more dangerous for them. I want the pimps to be so underground that they can't even show their face to sunlight without getting taken out. At least the victims can know society is trying to protect them then.
Who are the pimps? What are pimps? Why do you have these weird fantasies about "taking them out" to protect victims? I suppose this is part of our gap- your desires of protecting helpless victims through violence is just the same thing as pornography to me- they both are fantasical day dreams that might reveal a lot of base desires, but because of that are impossible to regulate or control

Anyway- have to leave soon so to quickly go over the rest of this- LOL at the Anime bit. I do think you might be trolling with that paragraph, but part of why I have to go quickly is because I have an anime convention I'm going to, so I think you've checkmated me with your creepy and ill adjusted comment. Bravo

Robots aren't gonna give us benefits without working- we're gonna have to do a lot more suffering and a lot more pimping via the government.

As far as PornHub goes, I'm sure they're a bunch of assholes, but they're providing a basic hosting platform for content that isn't allowed elsewhere BECAUSE it isn't allowed elsewhere. If you want to shut them down for doing things you don't like, well, the people posting are gonna have to scurry somewhere else. Because of the way the internet works, you're gonna have to illegalize having the content AT ALL if you want to actually shut these websites down, and if you make porn illegal in general, that will mean only fans will have to go away too. They don't exist seperately afetrall- they're all the same system.
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#22 Post by Fluminator » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm

Ok some anime is okay like One Punch Man.

I can respond more later, but to clarify I'm not having violent fantasies of taking out the pimps, I want the government to arrest them and have a fair trial. "Taking out" is more like "taking them out of society"

Sports are very broad, and each sport is different to cover. Like boxing and soccer are very very different. I would need some sources that they hurt their performers a lot more. (I already believe it would be the case for boxing). But that's a different topic worth it's own discussion and as you point out, whataboutism isn't that useful to get into.

I can explain more about pimps in a bit. If you want an example of a recent one that was just arrested, you can look at Andrew Tate and lose faith in humanity.

Your final paragraph is why I'm not 100% on board onlyfans as ethical porn. I recognize it would be hard to differentiate ethical porn from abusive porn from a legal perspective, which is why it might just be easier to ban it all as the cons outweigh any benefits.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#23 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm

Fluminator wrote: I admittedly need to learn more about onlyfans. I know a lot of people say this is the solution to making porn ethical so I'd have to look into it more. Would you be willing to fight with me to make other porn like the site "pornhub" illegal?
Even just recently they were advertising companies that created deepfakes of women who did not consent at all.
It's complicated. Pornhub is just a platform on which other people and companies post porn videos. To my knowledge Pornhub doesn't produce porn, it's just a site where users can post porn videos. So the question is, even if your premise opposing the commercial porn industry is valid (which I'm not sure of), I don't know if Pornhub specifically is the right target for intervention. You're talking as if you think Pornhub *makes* the porn, which I don't think they do.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#24 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:04 pm

Doom427 wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:31 pm
Ok, to engage a bit in this, why not sports? Sports are a lot more normalizezd, hurt their performers A LOT more, encourage more violence, ect. ect...
This is a very good point. Look at boxing and MMA in particular. They both involve significant violence and participants often suffer life-changing injuries. A not insignificant number of boxers have experienced long term brain injuries as a result of their careers.

Should we ban boxing?

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#25 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:16 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm

I can explain more about pimps in a bit. If you want an example of a recent one that was just arrested, you can look at Andrew Tate and lose faith in humanity.
Andrew Tate is a vile human being who should be thrown into a deep hole. That I can agree with.

However I'm not sure I can accept the argument that because some people have been trafficked and forced to appear in porn videos under duress, therefore all porn should be banned. I can give you multiple examples of groups of men from North Africa and Eastern Europe being trafficked to the UK and other western countries and forced to work in restaurant kitchens and the construction industry. Does this mean that restaurants and construction should be banned?

You might accuse me of whataboutery here, but one of your key arguments for banning porn is because it would combat human trafficking. The number of people trafficked to provide forced labour is estimated to be three or four times greater than the number of people trafficked for sex-related work (I can provide a source for that estimate if required).

Porn and sex work are easy targets because of the social stigma attached to them. But if your primary concern is actually to stop trafficking, it's worth understanding that sex work / porn is not the main driver of human trafficking.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#26 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:18 pm

An interesting question for Flum:

Why did you decide to make this thread about *porn*, specifically, rather than *sex work* ?

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#27 Post by Fluminator » Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm
Fluminator wrote: I admittedly need to learn more about onlyfans. I know a lot of people say this is the solution to making porn ethical so I'd have to look into it more. Would you be willing to fight with me to make other porn like the site "pornhub" illegal?
Even just recently they were advertising companies that created deepfakes of women who did not consent at all.
It's complicated. Pornhub is just a platform on which other people and companies post porn videos. To my knowledge Pornhub doesn't produce porn, it's just a site where users can post porn videos. So the question is, even if your premise opposing the commercial porn industry is valid (which I'm not sure of), I don't know if Pornhub specifically is the right target for intervention. You're talking as if you think Pornhub *makes* the porn, which I don't think they do.
Yeah, it's tough to know what aspect of it to target. I think we all agree the actors are not the correct target, but then do we do the distributors or the people actually producing it.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:04 pm
Doom427 wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:31 pm
Ok, to engage a bit in this, why not sports? Sports are a lot more normalizezd, hurt their performers A LOT more, encourage more violence, ect. ect...
This is a very good point. Look at boxing and MMA in particular. They both involve significant violence and participants often suffer life-changing injuries. A not insignificant number of boxers have experienced long term brain injuries as a result of their careers.

Should we ban boxing?
FWIW, I'm against boxing as a sport too and refuse to support it. I've recently heard a lot about American football being worse than initially thought, but I haven't looked into the science of that one yet.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:16 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm

I can explain more about pimps in a bit. If you want an example of a recent one that was just arrested, you can look at Andrew Tate and lose faith in humanity.
Andrew Tate is a vile human being who should be thrown into a deep hole. That I can agree with.

However I'm not sure I can accept the argument that because some people have been trafficked and forced to appear in porn videos under duress, therefore all porn should be banned. I can give you multiple examples of groups of men from North Africa and Eastern Europe being trafficked to the UK and other western countries and forced to work in restaurant kitchens and the construction industry. Does this mean that restaurants and construction should be banned?

You might accuse me of whataboutery here, but one of your key arguments for banning porn is because it would combat human trafficking. The number of people trafficked to provide forced labour is estimated to be three or four times greater than the number of people trafficked for sex-related work (I can provide a source for that estimate if required).

Porn and sex work are easy targets because of the social stigma attached to them. But if your primary concern is actually to stop trafficking, it's worth understanding that sex work / porn is not the main driver of human trafficking.
Trafficking behind the porn industry is just one aspect of it being bad. For the other slave labour, I'm open to hearing methods to stop those too.
It seems like porn addiction is a special case because it's ruining society and the minds of so many young people. People talk about how we need to teach boys not to sexualize women, yet we're totally okay with them watching content that does explicitly that?
I'm not saying people here who jack off to porn every day are messed up, I think a large factor being we grew up without the internet and didn't have easy access to it when our minds were developing.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:18 pm
An interesting question for Flum:

Why did you decide to make this thread about *porn*, specifically, rather than *sex work* ?
I made this thread after hearing the deepfake porn scandal where a company would make deepfakes of different women without their consent, and I am just so over the porn industry existing and being lauded as a good thing.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#28 Post by Randomizer » Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:53 pm

Porn was good enough for former president Trump, who appeared in 3 soft core films and one with Melania before their marriage. He also has acknowledged he slpet with 2 adult film actresses while married.

Trump's grandfather came from Germany to Alaska to start a house of prostitution that became the family fortune. Which kind of explains the family's attitude to women and sex.
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 pm
Look, I like freedom, but is there a single good thing the porn industry has ever done ever?
During the recession before the last, porn was one of the few growth industries hiring computer programmers to build the online sites. Most other tech companies were firing employees.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#29 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:01 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:58 pm
Fluminator wrote: I admittedly need to learn more about onlyfans. I know a lot of people say this is the solution to making porn ethical so I'd have to look into it more. Would you be willing to fight with me to make other porn like the site "pornhub" illegal?
Even just recently they were advertising companies that created deepfakes of women who did not consent at all.
It's complicated. Pornhub is just a platform on which other people and companies post porn videos. To my knowledge Pornhub doesn't produce porn, it's just a site where users can post porn videos. So the question is, even if your premise opposing the commercial porn industry is valid (which I'm not sure of), I don't know if Pornhub specifically is the right target for intervention. You're talking as if you think Pornhub *makes* the porn, which I don't think they do.
The issue with Pornhub is that people who make and sell content often find it has been copied and uploaded to this platform, making it much harder for them to make money, except for a few large porn companies who own the content hosting platforms... From a business perspective, it is very hard to argue that pornhub is a good thing, especially for individual creators who are much better served by OnlyFans - though there is a fear there that OF can change their term of service on a whim, banning certain types of content (like tumblr did before dissapearing from significance).

So most creators will try to maintain an audience on other platfroms, like Twitter and tiktok. But for those platforms where selling sexual content is prohibited this can mean having multiple accounts to keep ahead of the inevitable bans.

Basically the work which goes into this kind of sex work and making it profitable would make your head spin. But i follow at least one creator on Twitter who has been able to buy herself a house.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#30 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:05 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:53 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 pm
Look, I like freedom, but is there a single good thing the porn industry has ever done ever?
During the recession before the last, porn was one of the few growth industries hiring computer programmers to build the online sites. Most other tech companies were firing employees.
Wasn't Porn also 'blamed' for the victory of VHS over Betamax, and leading other entertainment industry decisions by taking advantage of new technologies? Like i suspect there is a lot more VR porn out there than any other type of VR content.

It can demonstrate and innovate where other industry monoliths are a lot slower to adapt to changes.

I'm not sure how significant this is. But you can do your own research if you want to know more.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#31 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:19 am

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm
It seems like porn addiction is a special case because it's ruining society
This is a big claim.

Of all the various issues confronting modern civilisation, porn addiction is "ruining society" in particular? On what basis have you determined this?
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#32 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:21 pm

How do you measure whether society has been ruined or not? What are the issues which porn causes? Is there a clear agree metric before we argue and have the goalposts moved?

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#33 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:16 pm

Well, as I starter for 10 I'd say that signs of a degraded society which may be influenced by porn might include an increase in the breakdown of families, falling fertility rates, rising sexual crime, and an increase in mental health issues.

But the extent to which porn has influence over such things, and the magnitude of the changes, is not a well known quantity as far as I'm aware. There are no fixed goalposts
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#34 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:46 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:16 pm
Well, as I starter for 10 I'd say that signs of a degraded society which may be influenced by porn might include an increase in the breakdown of families, falling fertility rates, rising sexual crime, and an increase in mental health issues.

But the extent to which porn has influence over such things, and the magnitude of the changes, is not a well known quantity as far as I'm aware. There are no fixed goalposts
Sometimes i agree with you more than i want to.

Big factors going into fertility rates, like economic changes, urbanisation, and wealth inequality have very little to do with porn consumption.

Breakdown of families may infact be a net positive for society, when it means fewer victims of domestic violence being forced to stay quiet and live with their abuser .

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#35 Post by Fluminator » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:48 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:53 pm
Porn was good enough for former president Trump, who appeared in 3 soft core films and one with Melania before their marriage. He also has acknowledged he slpet with 2 adult film actresses while married.

Trump's grandfather came from Germany to Alaska to start a house of prostitution that became the family fortune. Which kind of explains the family's attitude to women and sex.
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 pm
Look, I like freedom, but is there a single good thing the porn industry has ever done ever?
During the recession before the last, porn was one of the few growth industries hiring computer programmers to build the online sites. Most other tech companies were firing employees.
I don't really care for Trump so him liking it isn't a huge selling point to me.
For your second one, I guess that's a positive.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#36 Post by Fluminator » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:49 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:05 pm
Randomizer wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:53 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 pm
Look, I like freedom, but is there a single good thing the porn industry has ever done ever?
During the recession before the last, porn was one of the few growth industries hiring computer programmers to build the online sites. Most other tech companies were firing employees.
Wasn't Porn also 'blamed' for the victory of VHS over Betamax, and leading other entertainment industry decisions by taking advantage of new technologies? Like i suspect there is a lot more VR porn out there than any other type of VR content.

It can demonstrate and innovate where other industry monoliths are a lot slower to adapt to changes.

I'm not sure how significant this is. But you can do your own research if you want to know more.
Porn does drive growth. The internet took off largely because of porn, and VR will likely only become mainstream once it gets the porn down more.
But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. You could argue war drives technological growth too (which it does) but that doesn't justify war in and of itself
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#37 Post by orathaic » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:16 am

That is assuming VR does manage to become the next big thing in porn, which I'm not convinced by...

I guess you can argue whether technological progress is a good thing, innovation and what-not. But porn is not war.

Saying the good does not justify the bad is entirely fine, if you argue what the bad is.

Educationally porn is a travesty. People should explicitly learn in school that porn is fantasy, and learning about sex from it is like learning about history from Lord of the Rings. But unfortunately it manages because sex positive educational content is either too hard to come by, or banned from schools.

In this sense porn is filling a vital role it was never meant to, and its ubiquity combined with ease of access is a problem. But that is not porn's fault. There is demand so it gets made, there is little or no demand for educational sexual content so it doesn't get made and ppl watch what exists. (I will say sexplainations with Dr. Lindsey Doe is a great educational resources, and should be made mandatory for all teachers of sex ed to educate themselves...).

So i fault education and unhealthy attitudes towards sex (which guide what educational institutions are able to provide) not porn for this problem. I have yet to see any examples specific to porn which would justify banning it.

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#38 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:55 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:19 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm
It seems like porn addiction is a special case because it's ruining society
This is a big claim.

Of all the various issues confronting modern civilisation, porn addiction is "ruining society" in particular? On what basis have you determined this?
Flum hasn't addressed this and I assume he is not going to.
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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#39 Post by orathaic » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:26 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:55 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:19 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm
It seems like porn addiction is a special case because it's ruining society
This is a big claim.

Of all the various issues confronting modern civilisation, porn addiction is "ruining society" in particular? On what basis have you determined this?
Flum hasn't addressed this and I assume he is not going to.
I guess that is fair.

How do we improve things then when most people don't think it is an issue?

You could have a Sex worker focused discussion (centering their voices) to talk about the needs of workers and how to avoid exploitation in the industry. Maybe a Union.

You could have a Sex education focus, to address the problems i mentioned in my last post. Focusing on parents and what they didn't learn in school/don't want their kids to learn... But changing attitudes is the hardest thing for any educator. How do you go about teaching sex positivity? Apart from engaging with college students in a serious way and asking them what they wish they had been taught at second level.

You could talk about marital breakdown and find out what percentage of breakdown are caused by porn or preventative measures. So like discussing and/or watching porn together, understanding how overuse of any stimulus can affect performance, how to create a safe space for conversations about sex. Is porn addiction a real thing?

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Re: Is it time to make Porn illegal

#40 Post by Fluminator » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:04 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:55 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:19 am
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm
It seems like porn addiction is a special case because it's ruining society
This is a big claim.

Of all the various issues confronting modern civilisation, porn addiction is "ruining society" in particular? On what basis have you determined this?
Flum hasn't addressed this and I assume he is not going to.
That's a long thing to respond to, give me some time

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