Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

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Octavious
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#21 Post by Octavious » Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:20 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm
I know that low turnout for elections is bad for democracy. The poster child for this is the USA. Due to the low turnout, elections in the US aren't about convincing people to change their mind to vote for you. Elections are all about getting your supporters to turn out and discouraging your opponents from voting.
I don't follow the logic there at all. Surely a low turnout means the exact opposite. If there's a low background vote anyone who can inspire new voters to come out and vote has a massive advantage compared to nations with typically high turnouts.

What typically happens in any democratic nation is that the dominant parties observe trends and this becomes the perceived wisdom in how they think they can win elections. They then double down on this every election cycle, with success attributed to doing it well and failure attributed to not trying it hard enough. In many ways like the evolution of sabre toothed tigers that gave the species ridiculous teeth that would fail abysmally if faced with a true competitor.

You could argue that Trump was defeated by this very thing. He relied on motivating the Republican base, which he clearly succeeded in doing looking at the numbers who voted for him, but lost because there was a record turnout including a hell of a lot of people who don't normally give a damn.

If you look at Macron in France, he is President because the perceived wisdom of the traditional centre left and centre right French parties turned out to be bollocks. UKIP and its successor Brexit Party destroyed the idea that only the two major UK parties have real influence in Britain and forced through their agenda. Italy is constantly redefining the perceived wisdom of how Italian politics (for want of a better word) works. Germany may well be heading for its own shift in perceptions.
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#22 Post by Octavious » Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:33 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm
Why would you be against compulsory voting? What is so bad about it?
From a point of principle, a vote is a hard won freedom that is greatly prized and seen as a duty proudly carried out my many. To reduce such a treasure to an obligation imposed by political masters is tragic.

From a more practical point of view, why water down the votes of those, like us, who genuinely care and who think deeply about the issues, with the votes of those who have only turned up to avoid a fine and would much rather be watching TV at home? I have nothing against people with no interest in politics. I will happily try to convince them otherwise, but respect their right to tell me to sod off and let them live as they see fit.
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#23 Post by flash2015 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:20 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:20 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm
I know that low turnout for elections is bad for democracy. The poster child for this is the USA. Due to the low turnout, elections in the US aren't about convincing people to change their mind to vote for you. Elections are all about getting your supporters to turn out and discouraging your opponents from voting.
I don't follow the logic there at all. Surely a low turnout means the exact opposite. If there's a low background vote anyone who can inspire new voters to come out and vote has a massive advantage compared to nations with typically high turnouts.
And how do you inspire voters to come out? At least in the US it isn't about rationally evaluating the policies. It is about scaring the voters silly or pandering to activists.
What typically happens in any democratic nation is that the dominant parties observe trends and this becomes the perceived wisdom in how they think they can win elections. They then double down on this every election cycle, with success attributed to doing it well and failure attributed to not trying it hard enough. In many ways like the evolution of sabre toothed tigers that gave the species ridiculous teeth that would fail abysmally if faced with a true competitor.
This isn't what happens in Australia. The parties figure out what policies were winners and losers and they use this to adjust their platforms for the next election. Labor for example after the previous election dropped its policy on negative gearing reform because they found it was a loser (even though it was good policy)
You could argue that Trump was defeated by this very thing. He relied on motivating the Republican base, which he clearly succeeded in doing looking at the numbers who voted for him, but lost because there was a record turnout including a hell of a lot of people who don't normally give a damn.
We got record turnout on both sides largely because Trump amped up the polarization. The democrats were evil and were going to make America communist.

Democrats appeal to activists on climate change and social issues (pregnant people - seriously?) to juice up the turnout.

The people in the center that just want competence in government aren't catered for at all.
If you look at Macron in France, he is President because the perceived wisdom of the traditional centre left and centre right French parties turned out to be bollocks. UKIP and its successor Brexit Party destroyed the idea that only the two major UK parties have real influence in Britain and forced through their agenda. Italy is constantly redefining the perceived wisdom of how Italian politics (for want of a better word) works. Germany may well be heading for its own shift in perceptions.
One of the many problems with the electoral system in the United States is the two party duopoly. France and the UK have better systems which allow new parties to emerge (though you really should have preferential voting).

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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#24 Post by flash2015 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:59 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:33 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm
Why would you be against compulsory voting? What is so bad about it?
From a point of principle, a vote is a hard won freedom that is greatly prized and seen as a duty proudly carried out my many. To reduce such a treasure to an obligation imposed by political masters is tragic.

From a more practical point of view, why water down the votes of those, like us, who genuinely care and who think deeply about the issues, with the votes of those who have only turned up to avoid a fine and would much rather be watching TV at home? I have nothing against people with no interest in politics. I will happily try to convince them otherwise, but respect their right to tell me to sod off and let them live as they see fit.
I personally don't see it as much of an imposition. As citizens we have lots of obligations - from jury duty to the military draft to paying taxes or even to make sure we have a valid driver's license. In the grand scheme of things, this is a minor one.

We do have what's called "the donkey vote" in Australia where people just start numbering from the top and do 1,2,3,4,5. Major Mitchell alluded to this a little by complaining about his position on the card. But that is a relatively small percentage of the vote. Most people appear to make an effort.
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#25 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:31 am

My policy of a Marching Band led Recovery is a hit with Ratepayers!
Eight dozen new Rotundas in our Parks and Four dozen new Marching Bands, playing the Post Horn Chase, Waltzing Matilda and other classics from 9 am to 5 pm daily That's a Proper Christian Marching Band Led Recovery!
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Octavious
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#26 Post by Octavious » Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:35 pm

9am? If you want my vote you'd have to start at dawn

Sun arise come every mornin'
Bringin' back the warmth to the ground
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#27 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:27 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:35 pm
9am? If you want my vote you'd have to start at dawn

Sun arise come every mornin'
Bringin' back the warmth to the ground
If he wants my vote he'd have to keep that shit quiet until noon.

I am not a morning person. The last thing I'd want if to be woken up by oom-pah music at bloody dawn. That sounds awful.

Octavious is probably the kind of person who wakes at 6am and starts the day with a 30 minute jog and an ice bath.

A sick pervert, in other words.
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Re: Daffy Old MM & Local Council Election

#28 Post by MajorMitchell » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:58 pm

Just as well neither of you are Ratepayers in Paradise Lost Cove, so you do not vote in this election.
Our Garbage trucks start at 5 am going around noisily, so a 9 am start for Marching Bands isn't that early.
The Post Horn Chase at Dawn might have some Merit.

Went to a Business Association fundraising for Salvation Army lunch for candidates today. I am unused to eating these types of big lunches and the entree was enough for me.

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