More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

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Octavious
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#21 Post by Octavious » Sat May 28, 2022 3:27 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:51 pm
Because otherwise, how about explaining, to the relatives of the over 150 children shot and killed in American schools since 2010, about how America's gun culture made their dead children safer?
It is, as you allude to, the same problem. As things stand it is easy to point at dead bodies and declare "look, it is obvious!"

My point is that the instant the law is changed to something akin to what you desire the power of the imagery swaps sides.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#22 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 28, 2022 11:46 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:23 pm
I have seen no studies that suggest the opposite.
I literally provided a link which, in turn, referenced multiple studies.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#23 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sat May 28, 2022 11:50 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:27 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:51 pm
Because otherwise, how about explaining, to the relatives of the over 150 children shot and killed in American schools since 2010, about how America's gun culture made their dead children safer?
It is, as you allude to, the same problem. As things stand it is easy to point at dead bodies and declare "look, it is obvious!"

My point is that the instant the law is changed to something akin to what you desire the power of the imagery swaps sides.
Wrong.

I *know* children are being murdered in schools, in the present, on such a regular basis that a serious change in the law is necessary.

Your are *speculating* that such a change in the law would increase the murder rate in the future, but you can't offer any evidence in support of this speculation, even though I have provided a link to evidence against your position.

I am using facts.

You are using (pretty crap) imagery.

There we go.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#24 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:15 am

Chaqa wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 12:45 pm
I'm always torn on this because I'm both very sympathetic to the people who want to change the gun laws (and I think there's miles of progress that can be made that is reasonable before confiscations or anything), but I'm also a gun owner since I was able to and I don't really see why I should lose my rights because someone else is a terrible person.

There's so many guns in America that I'm unsure any change is going to help at this point, but I don't see any reason why we can't have universal background checks and more consistent laws on firearm storage and safety, at the very least.

Part of the issue is also that firearms laws are mostly state to state. It's all well and good if California or New York passes a more restrictive gun law, but most people could just travel across the border to Nevada (for CA) or Pennsylvania or New Hampshire (for NY) and get a gun with few questions asked.

I don't know what can be done to stop it, but if anyone even tried suggesting a mass confiscation/gun restriction there would probably be quite literal blood in the streets, as anyone coming to try to take guns from many gun owners would be met with the receiving end.

Especially given how close we came to the January 6 group succeeding, why would we want to give our guns up when we're the closest to a possibly tyrannical government we've ever been?

America is in a really dangerous spot atm and as a pretty liberal person, I'm probably more pro-gun than ever because I am absolutely terrified of some of my supposed "fellow Americans" who think that anyone who isn't a white Christian Republican is the devil.
An interesting statistic for people to chew on: if we removed one gun per minute in the United States, it would take 500 years to get rid of them all.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#25 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:21 am

I still to this day find it fascinating how much Jamie has an opinion on American policy/laws yet doesn’t actually live here and probably never would want to…

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#26 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:31 am

As an American gun owner who lives in the 3rd highest guns per capita county in the country and who doesn’t experience mass shootings in any form, the issue of gun violence in the United States is incredibly complicated and we continue to try to do the most extreme measure (“Ban assault rifles”) while the other side abruptly responds with a resounding “Get wrecked”. We do this political dance for years without trying to take common sense measures that both sides can agree to.

If you have time, I suggest you watch this - it isn’t pro gun if you’re concerned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5g7OE3 ... ifthColumn

This is a type of reform that makes so much sense, yet we do nothing.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#27 Post by Randomizer » Sun May 29, 2022 3:37 am

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uv ... -rcna30568

The school had followed the Texas plans following previous school shoots to get a grant to increase security by hiring officers, planning, and with the police force that stood outside they had run a training drill to deal with an active shooter.

Didn't help one bit. A teacher propped a locked door open giving the shooter access. There were no school security guards at that school The police chief, that had led the training drill, ordered his men to stay back and kept federal forces from entering because they were afraid of getting shot. So much fr a hardened target.

You need to start with keeping the shooters from legally getting guns when they shouldn't have assed a proper background check. No mental health check was done. Shooter's social media had included threats in the months before he bought guns.

But Texas has some of the least restrictive gun purchasing laws in the country.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#28 Post by Octavious » Sun May 29, 2022 3:59 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:46 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:23 pm
I have seen no studies that suggest the opposite.
I literally provided a link which, in turn, referenced multiple studies.
None of which contradict what I have said. Your link says that the majority of studies believe that more lives will be saved than lost by implementing strict gun control laws. I am not attempting to argue against that, and suspect that it is true. What I am saying is that, regardless of whether or not the final balance sheet is favourable, it is undeniable that under such laws people will be killed who otherwise would have survived. I mentioned the West Virginia incident with Dennis Butler as a clear and (very) recent example of this.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#29 Post by Octavious » Sun May 29, 2022 4:06 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:50 pm
I am using facts.

You are using (pretty crap) imagery.

There we go.
No. You are combining some supportive facts with a great deal of emotional reaction and your own instincts and prejudice, and ignoring any inconvenient facts that challenge your position. You are also adding some blatant lies to the mix.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:15 pm
It's amazing the lengths Americans will go to in order to protect the lives of unborn fetuses in the womb, and yet they're happy for those children to be shot dead once they've been born.
This, for example, is utter bollocks.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#30 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun May 29, 2022 7:17 am

If you want to get a flavor of just how messed up things are in the USA, listen to this podcast of the This American Life radio show:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/670/be ... jabberwock.

The show discusses Alex Jones, a charlatan who has made millions of dollars propagating the fiction that the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting (20 children and 6 teachers murdered in Connecticut in 2012) never happened, that it was all staged, that the family members interviewed on TV were "shock actors," etc. The show also features one parent who is fighting back, in the face of death threats from Jones's followers.

Or check out this story from National Public Radio:
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/11010509 ... ngs-so-far.

It says that in 2022 alone, we have already had over 200 "mass shootings" (4 or more people shot or killed, not counting the shooter), and 27 school shootings with injuries or deaths. In 2021, we had 693 mass shootings.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#31 Post by orathaic » Sun May 29, 2022 8:42 am

The thing about an amendment is that they do not pass easily. But also, the 2nd amendment does not need to be alltered if it was interpreted as the writers intended (which the current supreme court seems fond of, or at least claims to...)

If the phrase 'well regulated militia' was interpreted to require at a minimum some 6 months of gin club membership and training. Require registering safe storage of guns. Require regulations for when the guns can be signed out from the safe storage (is for official militia business). The landscape of gun ownership could be altered without needing to dramatically alter the gun culture.

Eg: if all gun owners now belong to a gun club, and the entire club risked losing their licenses if one of their registered guns is used in a crime, then they would self-enforce some responcible behaviour on their members.

Can still go do all the legal things people do with guns (historical re-enactment events, sporting shooting, official hunting activities) and keep guns in your home - if registered as a safe storage....

But i know this wouldn't be enough for some, i have Texan cousins, and have met at least one family friend who carried at all times (and nearly didn't come on holiday to Ireland because he wouldn't be allowed to bring a gun through the airport). Still sensible reform within the meaning of the 2nd amendment seems reasonable.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#32 Post by orathaic » Sun May 29, 2022 9:07 am

Of course there are some other good takes:
Why is the conversation always about GUNS and never MEN. Women can get guns as easily as men, but they aren't committing mass murders. Why don't we talk about men's inability to control their emotions?
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#33 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun May 29, 2022 11:30 am

worcej wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 2:21 am
I still to this day find it fascinating how much Jamie has an opinion on American policy/laws yet doesn’t actually live here and probably never would want to…
I'm allowed to have opinions about things that happen in parts of the world outside my own village. Especially when those things are happening in a super powerful nation that has a huge influence on the rest of the world, and which some awful politicians in my own country are keen to copy, in some policy areas (thankfully, not this one).

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#34 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun May 29, 2022 11:38 am

worcej wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 2:31 am
As an American gun owner who lives in the 3rd highest guns per capita county in the country and who doesn’t experience mass shootings in any form, the issue of gun violence in the United States is incredibly complicated and we continue to try to do the most extreme measure (“Ban assault rifles”) while the other side abruptly responds with a resounding “Get wrecked”. We do this political dance for years without trying to take common sense measures that both sides can agree to.

If you have time, I suggest you watch this - it isn’t pro gun if you’re concerned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5g7OE3 ... ifthColumn

This is a type of reform that makes so much sense, yet we do nothing.
I watched the video. I'm sure Beau is right that there is connection between domestic violence and gun violence. So what he is proposing, as I understand it, is a ban on gun ownership for anyone convicted of domestic violence. I certainly agree that would be a step in the right direction.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#35 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun May 29, 2022 11:40 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 3:59 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:46 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:23 pm
I have seen no studies that suggest the opposite.
I literally provided a link which, in turn, referenced multiple studies.
None of which contradict what I have said. Your link says that the majority of studies believe that more lives will be saved than lost by implementing strict gun control laws. I am not attempting to argue against that, and suspect that it is true. What I am saying is that, regardless of whether or not the final balance sheet is favourable, it is undeniable that under such laws people will be killed who otherwise would have survived. I mentioned the West Virginia incident with Dennis Butler as a clear and (very) recent example of this.
You are mentioning one incident. What studies have actually been done? What proper analysis is there to show that guns systematically prevent crime and death in the way you have asserted?

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#36 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:02 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 7:17 am
If you want to get a flavor of just how messed up things are in the USA, listen to this podcast of the This American Life radio show:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/670/be ... jabberwock.

The show discusses Alex Jones, a charlatan who has made millions of dollars propagating the fiction that the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting (20 children and 6 teachers murdered in Connecticut in 2012) never happened, that it was all staged, that the family members interviewed on TV were "shock actors," etc. The show also features one parent who is fighting back, in the face of death threats from Jones's followers.

Or check out this story from National Public Radio:
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/11010509 ... ngs-so-far.

It says that in 2022 alone, we have already had over 200 "mass shootings" (4 or more people shot or killed, not counting the shooter), and 27 school shootings with injuries or deaths. In 2021, we had 693 mass shootings.
I personally dislike how the term ‘Mass Shooting’ is defined and used as a fear invoking tactic to get people concerned.

I’d imagine if we dug deeper into these counts you’d see the following:
  • The majority of these mass shootings are gang violence.
  • The shooters should not legally have a gun already due to their criminal history.
  • The weapon was gained through illegal methods.
  • The weapon of choice was a handgun, not a rifle.
School shootings are bad, we all agree, but the AR-15 and assault rifles are not the leading killers when it comes to guns.

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#37 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:06 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:07 am
Of course there are some other good takes:
Why is the conversation always about GUNS and never MEN. Women can get guns as easily as men, but they aren't committing mass murders. Why don't we talk about men's inability to control their emotions?
Because we, as a society, continue to emphasize men need to be strong and cannot have feelings. We don’t emphasize counseling and instead push the image of ‘tough it out’.

Look how we react when men claim to be victims of DV or even raped. Most people’s first reaction is to laugh about it. We victim blame the shit out of men.
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#38 Post by worcej » Sun May 29, 2022 2:09 pm

For shitzngigglez - this is the best murder statistics I can find: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2 ... able-8.xls

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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#39 Post by Octavious » Sun May 29, 2022 2:17 pm

They don't prevent death. They lead to more death. But on the balance sheet of who lives and who dies the names will be different. And those who have relatives who died who might otherwise have lived are unlikely to find comfort in the idea that there might ultimately be fewer deaths in the future.

There are plenty of examples out there if you search for them. The ALLERT centre at Texas University point to 10 events in the last 2 decades in Texas alone
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Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

#40 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun May 29, 2022 5:57 pm

worcej wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 2:02 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 7:17 am
If you want to get a flavor of just how messed up things are in the USA, listen to this podcast of the This American Life radio show:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/670/be ... jabberwock.

The show discusses Alex Jones, a charlatan who has made millions of dollars propagating the fiction that the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting (20 children and 6 teachers murdered in Connecticut in 2012) never happened, that it was all staged, that the family members interviewed on TV were "shock actors," etc. The show also features one parent who is fighting back, in the face of death threats from Jones's followers.

Or check out this story from National Public Radio:
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/11010509 ... ngs-so-far.

It says that in 2022 alone, we have already had over 200 "mass shootings" (4 or more people shot or killed, not counting the shooter), and 27 school shootings with injuries or deaths. In 2021, we had 693 mass shootings.
I personally dislike how the term ‘Mass Shooting’ is defined and used as a fear invoking tactic to get people concerned.

I’d imagine if we dug deeper into these counts you’d see the following:
  • The majority of these mass shootings are gang violence.
  • The shooters should not legally have a gun already due to their criminal history.
  • The weapon was gained through illegal methods.
  • The weapon of choice was a handgun, not a rifle.
School shootings are bad, we all agree, but the AR-15 and assault rifles are not the leading killers when it comes to guns.
There were 43 shootings in the USA, involving 4+ casualties, in the month of February 2022 so I've taken a look and tried to categorise them:

Motive unclear / not reported: 14
Gang violence (confirmed or probable): 10
Domestic violence: 8
Drunken bar/nightclub fight: 5
Political protest / rally: 2
Crazed madman goes on rampage: 1
Some teenagers arguing about a Facebook post: 1
Business argument: 1
Argument in a bowling alley: 1
Attempted robbery: 1

A few quick take-aways:

1. Gang violence is not the majority but it is a relatively common source of the reported gun violence.

2. Domestic violence was the second most common category. This adds weight to the video that you posted earlier calling for a ban on gun ownership for anyone with a record of domestic violence.

3. The next highest category, apparently, was drunk people arguing in bars and then going for their guns. Mixing booze and firearms is clearly not a good idea.

4. A few of the shootings were, apparently, for really stupid, trivial shit.

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