Ghost Rating Challenge 09/23

[UnknownHero]

Looks like we need a new Germany now, any takers?

Still looking for a replacement, only a few hours left.

[Ogion]

Well, James7171 bailed on us so we drew Game 2

[Yigg]

Well that's a bummer! I hope the short time ya'll had was still fun. :)

[burner]

It was indeed :)

[DougJoe]

GR Challenge 9/23 G1 is over and ended as a 7-way draw!

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=733365

After the "GOAT" game blew up into a million pieces, there was an attempt to have some of the same players start a new game but we didn't get 7 and, well, DOA for that one. So when Yonni posted this thread I was still in the mood to give things a shot and joined up. I was really hoping that I'd end up being the lowest rated player in the game as then there would be very little pressure to do well (nothing to lose, really). VI's drop ended up putting me in 6th, which still wasn't a bad place to be. Like I said for the "GOAT" game, I was interested in playing with some higher-rated players than myself, just to see what it was like.

I was not disappointed.

When the game started and I was assigned Austria, I was both nervous and excited. I've only played Austria with humans and press twice and one of those was my first game ever. Neither went very well... but I was also really wanted to have a better showing than Austria in the "goat" game. So I was also excited about the challenge.

Some highlights from what I can remember without a time-consuming review of all the messages:

S1901: I, R, and T each offered me an alliance from the start. Russia didn't want to play a boring R/T, Turkey offered a "Austria armies, Turkey fleets" thing, Italy seemed keen on I/R keeping R/T at bay. I was really leaning towards an A/I... Italy was the lowest ranked player and I thought it made sense for us to team up but didn't want to rule out anything with R or T if Italy came after me. Russia and I agreed on a bounce in Gal, IIRC. I didn't commit to anything with Turkey and I gave Italy some good vibes (I think). Germany was of course friendly as were France and England. So nothing out of the ordinary as far as moves go, Alb/Ser/Gal.

A1901: Well, nothing unusual there. Italy's move to Tuscany was interesting. I think there was more talk from Turkey about committing to A/T, which I think again I tried to avoid committing to. I don't remember if Russia and myself agreed to a bounce again (ok, I had to check the messages and Russia asked but I honestly forgot to respond after a pause). Otherwise, Greece and Ser for me this turn. Germany and I discussed Sweden - he said he was not going to bounce and I didn't press the issue, although maybe I should have. Germany seemed to think England was anti-Russia and so wasn't worried about it.

W1901: The results of the autumn turn surprised me with Turkey walking into Rumania. I really wasn't sure at this point if this was planned or not - if it was a disguise of the R/T all along it did throw me off. Turkey did agree to build two fleets (no armies). I built two armies - didn't see any alternative. France in Ruhr and England in Belgium was interesting. Germany didn't bounce Russia in Sweden but I'm guessing that Germany realized here that England was not anti-Russian but anti-German. Had Germany bounced Sweden here, Russia would not have built... and Russia being in Gal was annoying.

S1902: Turkey did build fleets. The discussions here were very interesting and quite honestly this is where I failed. Russia seemed to be interesting in attacking Turkey. Turkey really wanted to get into AEG. Italy also was interesting in getting into AEG. This is where, in attempting to stay in everyone's good graces (instead of just saying "no, it's an A/I, sorry, deal with it") I came up with this idea where on I would attack Bulgaria in the fall (what Russia wanted) but then continue on to Rumania (fully expecting Russia to be there in the Autumn instead of Turkey) allowing Turkey to keep Bul and enabling my attack on Russia. Then maybe I could play Turkey and Italy off against each other while the attack on Russia progressed. I really still preferred Italy to come out on top in that, but didn't want him to succeed too quickly. I didn't get any hard "no"s from anyone, but, even with all that, I still wasn't sure about it all and considered switching my moves to a defense against R/T - but I figured, "what the hell" and went for it.

F1902: ...and it all goes wrong. Italy doesn't go after Turkey. Russia and Turkey kick me out of Serbia. I get Gal, but Russia can retreat to Bohemia, which is pretty awful for me. Italy was upset I wasn't more concerned about his needs vis-a-vis Turkey, Turkey didn't think I'd go through with my plan and also didn't feel like he was going to get anything out of it and so chose to side with Russia. I don't know if any of that was true or was a good excuse or both, but it really doesn't matter, it's bad. I'm in trouble.

There are a lot of discussions with Italy about what happens next - we both make proposals to each other. IIRC, we don't necessarily see eye to eye on what needs to happen tactically. He's worried about one possible outcome, me another. I have the feeling that Turkey is going to move Serbia-Greece because I can force Serbia... but I wasn't trusting of my gut enough that I was right, so I used every unit to get Serbia back, not using Bud or Tri to stop Boh-Vie. I think I was worried about Russia playing Rum S Ser, even though it appeared that Russia was AFK though a much of the turn...

W1902: I do get Serbia back, but lose Vie and Gre. I "rage retreated" to ION, readying the retreat very quickly. I have to pull two units and it's not obvious which to pull. I get suggestions from all over the place. I'm a little bit annoyed about Italy's attack on France (I don't think Mar can't be held, and I wanted a move to Tyrolia for help) even though I know there's probably an E/F afoot. I could keep Gal to try to use Tri/Gal to retake Vie, but I think it's too easy for Russia to defend that. Based on my annoyance with Italy, I keep ION and Tri, expecting Italy to build a fleet which might let me get Venice. I think I have conversations with Turkey about being a "spearhead" for him going west, which isn't great but what else is there?

S1903: I figure both Serbia and Budapest are lost, so I continue with "how to get Venice". I figure the best thing to do is to go to Tyo/Tri/ADR and hope for the best.

A1903: Russia supports Italy's Ven-Tri (which is unexpected) which blocks Ser-Tri. I know that Italy wasn't happy about me keeping ION, maybe I should have removed that, maybe not. Italy does get kicked out of Mar, though, and retreats to Pie. Turkey doesn't like Italy being in Tri and offers to support me in, which makes sense because I want Alb-Tri to cut any support of Pie-Ven. I also ask France to tap Pie for the same reason, so Pie can't support Tri-Ven. As much as I don't like having the fleet in Ven (instead of the army) I figure Italy will play ION-ADR, so I kind of have to do Tyo S ADR-Ven and hope.

W1903: It works, but Russia supports Italy in Tri (Turkey is annoyed about it but I'm wondering if that's real or not). So now I have to decide whether to keep Ven or Tyo. F Ven is very useless but in the supply center, A Tyo is more useful but not. I decide that there's more life in A Tyo.

S1904: Italy and I start talking about swapping centers back. I offer to support Tri-Vie with the option of Tyo-Tri in the fall. I tell him I need to think about the support and ask a question that I never get an answer to (why he's willing to go against Russia now when he wasn't before) but I put the support in anyway and tell him late in the phase that that's what I've done.

A1904: And, not unexpectedly, he doesn't move Tri-Vie but goes back to Venice. Russia takes Trieste. France gets kicked out of Munich, though, and is in Bohemia, which is interesting. There's talk now of Russia supporting me into Ven, but I don't remember saying much about it. I get confirmation from various sources that G/R are going to defend Munich against Boh-Mun, so I think that Sil-Boh won't happen... England works out a deal for me with France such that France gets Belgium and then doesn't lose a dot and France to agrees to support Tyo-Vie.

W1904: ...and that's what happens, I get Vie. Russia supported Tyo-Ven even though I'm pretty sure I never agreed to it, which surprised me. Turkey defends Tri and (I think) gets Rum as compensation.

S1905: I'm going to get kicked out of Vie and there's not much to do. I just hold.

A1905: Russia again offers support into Ven, but then G says he wants to support Tyo-Mun. Russia seems to be on board. I say something to E/F (even though I probably shouldn't) late in the turn about what might happen but not exactly what's going to happen. England doesn't see it (too busy) and France does but there's no time to change the moves (which were the obvious Ruh & Kie S Mun). France understood my motivations and I understood the potential consequences.

W1905: I'm parked in Munich. France proposes supporting Mun-Ber, G/R want to support hold Mun. Leaning towards the latter, why do anything else for now? Other builds happen, then England writes a long piece and proposes a 7-way draw.

S1906: We draw. I'm not dead. Not that being at 1 center is much better, mind you, but I didn't die.

The press in this game from everyone was fantastic (especially Yigg in England, he made me laugh a lot which I sorely needed) and I'm glad everyone stayed in for the whole game. Even though the outcome wasn't what I had hoped for, I'm still glad I gave it a shot and played in a game with some higher ranked players. I had some personal stuff blow up pretty bad at one point during one of the pauses - I don't remember when exactly - but it really made it hard to focus, and it wasn't anything that was going to be fixed instantly so I didn't feel it right to extend the pause.

Again, great game everyone!

[cormorant]

Italy here from the GR game https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=733365

Really fantastic players in this game, and a privilege to play with you all.

I ended up being the lowest ranked player, with Turkey/Yonni ranked 17! (gulp). Not being one to shy away from a challenge I immediately tried to organize a 3v1 against Turkey. I really liked Austria's appeal of 'us low ranked players should stick together against the the others', but I didn't want to get locked into a predictable Lepanto, so I asked Austria about possible support to Aegean in fall. He was noncommital so that led to my spring moves.

A1901: Well, nothing unusual there. Italy's move to Tuscany was interesting.

This was a gambit that didn't quite work. I was getting the sense that RT was starting to form, since almost all Russia and Turkey mostly asked for was for me to move to Tyrolia or Trieste. I really wanted to hobble Turkey, so I _thought_ I got Russia to agree with a plan to take Turkey down -1 or -2 and then attack Austria. I wasn't totally sure if I would work with A or R after (leaning R though), I just wanted to reduce the Turkish threat.

Despite the 'underdogs vs big dogs' comment from A, I was still concerned about early diplomacy from Austria - that he was showing weakness in global press too early (I was jittery but not going to show it!), and wasn't super warm/fuzzy in personal press like many of the other players, especially considering how Italy starts out with some leverage over Austria's future chances in the game. There were other yellow flags as well, such as Austria not pushing back on Germany's plan to allow Russia into Sweden - I thought he was being inattentive in the crucial early game. So I wanted to double-check on how he would act if I removed my threat temporarily. I had a gut feeling he wasn't going to be reliable as an ally, but I also didn't want to encourage the RT further by stabbing him early. My Tuscany move might have had a similar effect though by making me appear too friendly.

Russia decided to work with Turkey, and impressively deceived me and Austria, then stab Austria AND Germany early on and never pay a price. He successfully bluffed that his failure to take Rumania was a huge unplanned mistake, but in retrospect I don't think it was. He put a lot of early trust in Turkey though and that paid off, gaining the Black Sea early (with the help of my earlier diplomatic efforts against Turkey) but never really using that leverage to hobble Turkey. I'd love to see more details of that 1901 & 1902 RT press that got Turkey out of that jam. That F1902 R+T move completely and totally took me by surprise and was a real eye opener about what a high level game can look like. 1902 looked like an EF & RT trying to squeeze us in the middle, which was basically the rest of the game, with some smaller twists and turns.

After Austria lost Serbia I lost faith in the possible effectiveness in our alliance. From then on I would take a more conciliatory track with Turkey lasting the rest of the game, my earlier diplomatic efforts at 3v1 having not panned out the way I'd hoped. I'd spend the rest of the game checking if R would stab T or E would stab F, but no convincing traction there that would not unduly risk my home centers. I had some interesting and I think legit offers from R & T but ended up prioritizing defense.

On the western side France offered early DMZs everywhere which I accepted, assuming my efforts would be vs. Turkey. England strongly hinted at an EG also, so I got the sense I wouldn't have to worry about France for a while, and that England and I would cooperate down the line. After I accepted France's DMZs, Germany suggested I move to Piedmont to ratchet pressure, however I didn't want to break my word. As a bluff that I tried to coordinate with England, I also announced to France that I was going to move to Piedmont but then recanted. This was another mistake on my part, as France kept moving units in my direction, partly due to the suspicion I engendered and I think with a little encouragement from England. He might have done so anyways but I think I made France's decision to trust England easier.

After France move to Spa-South and I had given up on Austria as tactically unreliable. I tried the move to Mar - this time following my hunch that France was going to leave it open - I was surprised when it succeeded. Finally a lucky break! However, Austria's retreat into Ionian and keeping that as one of his few units really turned me from neutral towards Austria to seeking his elimination . Like Austria couldn't defend himself, but also wouldn't let me capitalize on this one lucky break I got in Marseilles. England also never followed through on hints he might attack F, leaving me in the lurch to my West.

Again - great game all!

[Aristocrat]

Russia decided to work with Turkey, and impressively deceived me and Austria, then stab Austria AND Germany early on and never pay a price. He successfully bluffed that his failure to take Rumania was a huge unplanned mistake, but in retrospect I don't think it was.

W1901: The results of the autumn turn surprised me with Turkey walking into Rumania. I really wasn't sure at this point if this was planned or not - if it was a disguise of the R/T all along it did throw me off.

I don't see how anything short of Russia having Jedi mind powers would lead me to believe that this was a mistake:



One unit going the wrong place, maybe it it is a mistake (but 99% of the time it's a lie), a supported attack into Galicia? Russia clearly believes Turkey is working with them (and Turkey has little leverage over Sev after builds).

[BrianBaru]

This is so disappointing. I played in the GR2 game. We successfully played a key Lepanto. I thought it would be an interesting game. But one player dropped out, so a six way draw. The GR1 game ends in a seven way draw.

It seems most players here seldom go for the win. They miss half the game.

[Yonni]

Hats off to Josef IV (Russia) in this game. I thoroughly enjoyed playing next to him - he's a scary guy to play with because he's clearly very good at the game. But, no, he didn't have jedi mind powers. We had a pretty fun opening that was completely orchestrated from the start.
We had some conflict when he decided to defend Trieste later and then I retaliated by building in Con but, overall, I'd say it was one of the more pleasant alliances I've ever been in.

[DougJoe]

This is so disappointing. I played in the GR2 game. We successfully played a key Lepanto. I thought it would be an interesting game. But one player dropped out, so a six way draw. The GR1 game ends in a seven way draw.

It seems most players here seldom go for the win. They miss half the game.

I'd suggest you read England's proposition for the 7wd in the global chat (if you haven't).

[Theodoric]

Brian: Speaking for myself, I've tried to solo any time I thought I had a chance to do so. I've finished seven classic press games and solo'd in two of them.

My feeling is that this came was played very carefully and intelligently by everyone, and none of us ever had a clear opportunity to attempt a solo. Of course, it's possible that one or more of us could have gotten a bigger payoff by being more aggressive, and certainly a player who placed zero value on a draw would have played differently.

[Yigg]

This is so disappointing. I played in the GR2 game. We successfully played a key Lepanto. I thought it would be an interesting game. But one player dropped out, so a six way draw. The GR1 game ends in a seven way draw.

It seems most players here seldom go for the win. They miss half the game.

I'd suggest you read England's proposition for the 7wd in the global chat (if you haven't).

Well, I'd say you should only read it if you really set some time aside to. He's a bit too verbose sometimes, and clearly comes from the James Joyce school of brevity.

[DougJoe]

My feeling is that this came was played very carefully and intelligently by everyone

Eh, nothing I did really worked out, so I'm not sure either of these apply to me in this game! But better players than I have gotten blasted as Austria, too, so it's not the end of the world.

Comorant's post confirms what I suspected - that I was too wishy-washy in the early stages - especially with him - and didn't realize it until it was too late. I know that part of the 1902 mess (especially in the spring) was due to wanting something to happen rather than just simply playing D... and I went back through our press from 1901 and I see what he's talking about with warm and fuzzy - I can see how it would be taken as kind of sterile, although that wasn't my intent.

[Yigg]

England/Yigg’s Perspective on game: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=733365

S01: The very first thing I do is feel out Russia for a top-down ER alliance. I’ve always wanted to play in one as England, so I figured this was the right time. Russia seems receptive. But also France and I hit it off immediately. His frequency was right there with mine and we kinda fell into sync. Truly tragic is that Germany is late to getting to press, and while his proposal for an EG was bold (and I love bold openings), I was kinda already really jamming with France. So I pretty much decided at this point that I was going with some combination of EF, ER, or EFR. Not seeing what an alliance with IRidePigs would be like is a legit regret I had in this game. The trouble was how to put off Germany and not give up in S01 that I’m riding EF. So I start telling everyone on the board that Russia really isn’t talking to me (which was true for a time, depending on how loosely “time” is defined). And by the time I get to Germany, I tell him that I wouldn’t be comfortable opening immediately against France because Russia is too quiet and I can’t afford a northern opening out of Russia. I add that “people” have told me Russia plans to open north, so I’m nervous. I chat a lot with Italy, Austria, and Turkey, feeling out if Italy would possibly open against France. My moves are vanilla. France opens to Burgundy as agreed. Russia does NOT open north. Italy moves Ven to Tus, which I found different but weird. S01 opens great for me.

F01: Russia asks me not to take Norway with the army, which is an easy give. Things with Russia are great! The ER in my mind is still on the table. Germany asks who told me that Russia planned to open north, and I say I won’t out my (totally non-existent) sources but instead feel embarrassed that I believed it in the first place. I can’t tell if he buys it, but press moves on unabated. To Germany’s credit, he honestly tells me that he’s going to cover Munich in case of French treachery. Other people say this as well. I immediately suggest to France that he move up to the Ruhr for hilarious reasons, and he agrees. I’m head over heels for France now. It also means that I can land in Belgium with an army unopposed. Not a bad feat for England in 01! I hear that Germany won’t bounce Russia in Sweden, and that’s a bummer. Even though I still want a good ER, I don’t want the R half to grow too quickly. Turkey takes Rum unopposed and then builds nothing but fleets. I smell Jugg, but don’t want to believe it. France moves his fleet to Spain SC, and that plays right into a potential France vs Italy, and I love that! I recommend France build a fleet in Brest to better disguise the EF. Germany builds a fleet in Kiel. Booo.

S02: I decided to work the EF long ago anyways, but the German fleet build gives me enough of a casus belli in my mind to pull the trigger this turn. I tell Germany that I’m going to fight him. For one, I respected his total honesty to this point and felt I owed it to him to stab him in the front. For two, telling him I’m going to attack him will help flush out his allies in press. For three, it backs up my legitimacy for when I say Imma do the thing, and is credit for if/when I have to lie later. I then coordinate with France to support him into Holland (which fails), and separately ask Russia to help me into Denmark (which succeeds). I know Germany can only protect one of those, and it lands my way. Score! France and Italy start moving at each other, which I see as only great for me long term. Austria guesses wrong and suffers a brutal wound this turn, and that sucks. I move to the Channel on the off chance France wasn’t on the up and up, feeling that if I didn’t move there and he did, I’d be proper fucked. That and I was already moving Edi to the North, so I had no other option but to act defensive. Trust but verify.

F02: I coordinate with France to get him into Kiel, which works. A move I don’t know if anyone saw coming. We bounce in Brest to keep things safe for us both, which works for me because EC wasn’t needed for any plans anyway. It drops Germany to 3 units by the end of 02 and the plan to take the center seems to be going well. Italy sneaks into Mars, though, and denies France a build. I know Italy can’t hold it, but it also means France doesn’t get too big to start threatening me. Perfect! The turn would be all aces for England, but Austria guessed wrong again and now Russia gains 2 builds (something Russia says even he didn’t expect). This time the blow is mortal. I was banking on him holding up the Jugg at least a few more years. This means Russia now has to build in either St.P or Sev, which would pressure either of Russia’s allies. I lobby hard to not see a build in St.P, but eventually concede to a St.P SC fleet build. I don’t like it, but it’s not unmanageable. Turkey also lobbied Russia for this result as a “compromise.” It’s at this point Russia, Germany, and Italy all start asking me to stab France. Turkey never asks me to, but just asks if I plan to (a subtle difference from outright asking). I legitimately feel that whenever the rest of the board asks you to do a thing, then I probably shouldn’t do that thing. It’s at this point I mentally decide that I’m Ride-or-Die with France, that either I solo or I keep him as a lifelong ally. I’ve said these exact words to France many times earlier, but now I'm genuinely all-in. Because I don't see the Jugg breaking up anytime soon, I feel like I need to maintain the alliance with France at all costs in order to balance out that Jugg.

S03: I move into the MAO behind France to cover in case Italy decides to move there, which would be super bad for us both. It also gives Italy the illusion that I might stab France, which is useful. Germany offers me Holland in exchange for getting him back Kiel. I think I start ghosting Germany around this time. I, uh, didn’t want to start telling him lies (my respect for you is strong, IRidePigs!), so I figure saying nothing at all is better? I don’t recommend this plan, by the way. But it’s also here that my time is rapidly diminishing from quality press, so having one less person to talk to kinda helps. I figure he’ll assume I go for Holland or use my army build to go somewhere other than backfill Belgium as I move up to Ruhr. Securing the center of the board was my main goal from day 1. As long as Russia continues to be friendly (which he still is), I can support France in Kiel. France and I go back and forth over lots of plans, but ultimately settle on 100% ensuring he kicks Italy out of Mars. Turkey keeps a fleet in Ank on ice, a shrewd move. I hint at Russia about this shrewdness, but try not to overplay my hand. He doesn’t bite, regardless. Austria’s collapse is imminent, and I remain bummed.

F03: Knowing that France can’t hold Kiel, we figure correctly that Germany would probably trade Kiel for Munich, but Russia moves up to Silesia. This is where ghosting Germany starts to really backfire on me, as he’s got Russia’s ear now. The center is messier than I’d like, but still manageable I think. France and I put my MAO fleet into the Western Med, which we both think is just hilarious. But practically is needed to put France at parity-to-better level with Italy and/or Turkey in the Med. Russia legitimately pisses off Turkey (or at least I think so), and Turkey suggests we tag team him. I agree, but I’m not in position yet. I mentally calculate if Turkey pulls the trigger first, I’ll follow the next turn for sure. My mistake is that I don’t explicitly tell Turkey that I need him to attack first in order for me to follow. Spoiler alert; Turkey never attacks Russia and tells me that my own attack never materialized, so he waved off the plan. So either I legit disappointed Turkey into not attacking Russia (which I would have wanted), or Turkey was baiting me into a trap of attacking Russia first. I’m pretty sure it’s the former, but would not rule out the latter. Also, Russia builds an army in Norway. It bothers me a lot and I start to wonder if our romance has faltered. He insists it’s for parity (which is true), but I don’t want that. But Turkey builds a fleet in Con. Okay, let’s go! I think he’s really gonna stab Russia (again, he doesn’t).

S04: I arrange with France so that I can take Kiel and, if Germany decides to retake Munich, that France can retreat up to Bohemia for greater advantage to then re-retake Munich in the Fall. The other side of the coin flip is that I don’t don’t take Kiel but Germany doesn’t take Munich. I can live with that, especially because my number continue to go up. I arrange to bounce with Russia in Norway, which is temporarily acceptable. I start ignoring nervousness about Russia. France and I get nowhere in the Med, but that’s fine. Turkey says he’s going to take Rum from Russia, but I tell him that Russia can stop it. Turkey responds cryptically that he’ll get it through diplomacy. This confuses me and I fail to see it for what it is, but I still somehow believe that Turkey is legit planning to fight Russia.

F04: I gamble and lose with Russia. He tells me we WON’T bounce in Norway, and I trust him. Based on that, I decided to land my third army in the center. Russia lied and took Norway. I feel crazy stupid and spout delicate rage. Turkey takes Rum like he said, but it’s simply to blow up Russia’s southern fleet. All arranged. I feel like an idiot for thinking the Jugg was broken up. This is the turn where I feel like I got outplayed, and it bugs the shit out of me. Thankfully I wasn't 100% asleep at the wheel. I help broker France supporting Austria into Vienna, which REALLY saved the day against the Russia stab, as he would have gone up 2 builds instead of 1. The tradeoff of this plan means that we know we can’t guarantee France back into Munich. So I tell France to take Belgium from me so that he can stay even. The great part about this is that I will look stabbed, and legitimately this time. I order support moves to Munich for France (which I know he won’t take). So when you look at the orders, it totally looks like a French stab, which 100% comes in handy next turn. France and I agree for him to attack me in the WMed as well to force me to retreat. Our original plan was for me to support him into NaF. But after thinking about it, I suggest that he attack me in WMed instead. This way, whatever Italy leaves open of Tyrr, Tunis, or NaF, I can forward retreat into. It also plays into the false French Stab plan. Ultimately, my fleet down there is a luxury to help France, so disbanding it makes sense. Back to my outrage with Russia, I still fume. I don’t scream at him, but let him know I’m still sore. I can’t say for certain how he feels, but I get the distinct impression that he feels bad about the stab, especially in light of the French moves. He agrees not to build in St.P as an olive branch. France and I agree on the narrative of the false stab. France will frame it as “asking forgiveness instead of permission,” because he needed to stay even with the effort of keeping Austria alive (a truth always helps a lie) and that I’m pissed about it, but will confirm that story when asked.The disband of the fleet actually normalizes relations between me and Italy, who took it personally that I both never attacked France with that fleet and in fact tapped Italy in Tyrr earlier. Now that I’m out of his way and France is one fleet weaker (with my absence), things start to improve. Sadly, I also started ghosting Italy a turn or so ago, a casualty of my limited time basically pressing the shit out of France and Russia. I feel bad about that, too.

S05: I continue to simmer at Russia, who legitimately wants to rebuild our relationship, but insists I attack France. I respond that I won’t move an inch against France until he repays the dot he stole, be it Norway or supporting me into a German one. I also agree not to attack him, but will act defensively to prevent further losses. He asks why I’m so incensed at him instead of France, who by appearances did the same thing. I really struggle to figure out a justification for this one, because since it was all arranged, how do I make it sound legit? Well, I say something along the lines that I told France the same thing and he’s already agreed to make it right, and that I won’t fight him before Russia makes us right. That and I won’t open my ass to an aggressive Russia. It feels flimsy, but I think I put enough emotion into it that it’s believable enough. This is where the currency of being honest the rest of the game comes in. Because I 100% order the move to retake Norway. The convoy to the mainland helps mask this somewhat, as it’s not super intuitive that I’d use that very army to go up to Norway. But I figure that if I don’t retake it now, a shot at it later becomes way more dicey. I help get France back into Munich ...again. Turkey and Russia bounce in Sev, but I don’t bother to ask if it’s mutual because I know it already is. France plays for position in the Med, and he’s making slow progress.Austria gets kicked out of Vienna, but we knew that was coming.

F05: Oh man, I legit believe I hurt Russia’s feelings with my dishonesty about revenge stabbing his stab. He asks if the France taking Belgium stab was real or if I was just playing with him. I feel *this tall* (I’m holding up my index finger and thumb in a gesture that indicates a very small height). I give him a wall of text explaining where my mind was in the re-stab. But I don’t answer his question about Belgium. I honestly didn’t have the heart to say it was a sham. (Side Note: Yeah Josef IV, it totally was, and I really do feel bad for engineering it and that it gave bad feels...even though it totally worked) So he tells me he’s going to defend Sweden in a way that I can’t take anything from him. I respond by telling him that I won’t attack him further without a 24 hour notice. Unfortunately for me, I 100% planned on attacking him, but my timer came and went. So I tell him how I’m going to attack him based on his defense so that nothing changes in the north. That works. France and I try a max defense of Munich, but HOLY SHIT! RG end up supporting Austria into Munich, thus taking it! I confess that I didn’t see that one coming. But it really did make me glad to see Austria still alive (who I had really good conversations with the whole game; I felt like we had a bond) even at the expense of making the center, my main goal this whole time, even more complicated. Good thing I told France that he could keep Belgium, otherwise my erstwhile ally would have gone down again. Italy continues to make a good showing of keeping his home 4 dots out of both French and Turkish hands. The Jugg still looks as solid as ever.

S06: It’s here that I start to truly realize that I don’t have enough time to carry this game on much longer. I’m spread so thin in RL that I’m landing butter-side up. I issue a treatise in public to call for a 7WD. Go read it for the full detail, but the cliff notes are that a) I’m out of time to participate in a quality way, b) these are all solid chaps, c) Germany and Austria both surviving triple teams into 06 should be rewarded, d) there was no real path for anyone to reach a solo (Turkey, and probably myself to a lesser extent, had the best shot), but would likely quickly thwarted, so why bother if it’s gonna Draw anyway, and e) with SoS scoring, there’s no need to actually eliminate anyone. Turkey suggests a Cancel, and while he makes a valid point, having made it this far to cancel the game would erase it from the ledger, and it’s been too quality a game to be lost to the ether. I legitimately feel bad, as I know Turkey wanted to see this played out way farther than it did (Side Note: Yonni, I mean that. I feel like I disappointed you, and that’s worse than a loss to me. Sorry, brother).

Had the game gone on, I probably would have come to kill Russia in the north, but not without considerable regret. I didn’t see a way to crack the center, though. Not without getting Austria on my side to shake up the calculus, but by that point he would have probably sided with a AGR coalition to brick it up.

So there you go. That was my very open approach to the whole game from my brain and seat at the table. Non-filtered post game approach to it all.

[DougJoe]

England/Yigg’s Perspective on game: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=733365

I was banking on him holding up the Jugg at least a few more years. This means Russia now has to build in either St.P or Sev, which would pressure either of Russia’s allies. I lobby hard to not see a build in St.P, but eventually concede to a St.P SC fleet build. I don’t like it, but it’s not unmanageable.

Sorry I didn't hold up my end of things, I think I figured at the time that's what you were hoping for... when that fleet showed up in StP, even on the south coast, where it has nowhere to go but Scandy, I thought for sure you were going to go for Sweden in S03 (but France probably wouldn't have liked losing Kie.)

This is the turn where I feel like I got outplayed, and it bugs the shit out of me. Thankfully I wasn't 100% asleep at the wheel. I help broker France supporting Austria into Vienna, which REALLY saved the day against the Russia stab, as he would have gone up 2 builds instead of 1. The tradeoff of this plan means that we know we can’t guarantee France back into Munich. So I tell France to take Belgium from me so that he can stay even. The great part about this is that I will look stabbed, and legitimately this time. I order support moves to Munich for France (which I know he won’t take). So when you look at the orders, it totally looks like a French stab, which 100% comes in handy next turn.

...a plan for which the Austrian was grateful. I knew I was being used to slow Russia down, but I was okay with that. I had done some legwork and had a pretty good feel that G/R were going to commit 100% to Munich so I was feeling pretty good that it would work. I didn't tell *anyone* about the fake stab - someone mentioned "France stabbing England" and I didn't say a word.

France and I try a max defense of Munich, but HOLY SHIT! RG end up supporting Austria into Munich, thus taking it! I confess that I didn’t see that one coming.

Yeah, Germany's request came in almost instantly when the turn started and Russia followed up soon after. I really had no beef with you or France, but was just trying to survive. I think I even suggested to France that Kie S Mun-Ber might not be a bad idea - but it was too late in the turn for either of you to really react. I really did struggle with telling you and France about what was going on. On one hand, I wanted to because in the long run Russia would suffer and I emotionally favored EF over RT. On the other hand, I didn't want to because Germany would suffer first (be eliminated!) and I didn't have any beef at all with him. And, as I told France, I'd expect to follow Germany into oblivion the next year. It was all black comedy at this point.

But it really did make me glad to see Austria still alive (who I had really good conversations with the whole game; I felt like we had a bond)

Yeah, it's too bad we didn't get the opportunity to work together directly! I know you're just on the other side of the lake but if you're ever in the mitten, give me a shout (and that goes for everyone else, too - this is the kind of game that deserved a post-game beverage or two.)

Had the game gone on, I probably would have come to kill Russia in the north, but not without considerable regret. I didn’t see a way to crack the center, though. Not without getting Austria on my side to shake up the calculus, but by that point he would have probably sided with a AGR coalition to brick it up.

Probably. France had offered to support me from Mun to Ber and I doubt I would have done that (the plan for the next turn was two supports on Mun, and I assume Russia would move other units closer as well to cover or try to snipe it). But if you had come over the top on Russia and spun things as a "let's get Russia, maybe we can get you into Warsaw or something", I honestly might have been swayed.

Great write up!

[Yonni]

Yigg, when I sent you that flippant message about attacking Russia, I was actually hoping it would work out and we'd do it. I could tell you were on decent terms with Russia an didn't trust me to break the jugg. So, when Russia stabbed (he maybe rightfully disagrees with the use of this term) me, I took it as an opportunity to explore my options there.

If I had seen the cavalry coming to help, I was going to keep pushing north. But then you lost (or, to my eyes, donated) Norway and I was happy as hell that I had kept things cordial with Russia and gave myself a diplomatic out. If he didn't retake Norway, Sev was going to be an easy get next year and the obvious move to make especially cause you guys were occupying Italy's time well.

Serbia supporting Trieste was a hard decision that turn and perhaps I hedged too hard.

The bottom line is that maybe Russia just deserves the credit for fixing things on both his northern and southern front simultaneously.

[Yigg]

The bottom line is that maybe Russia just deserves the credit for fixing things on both his northern and southern front simultaneously.

I could not agree more, Yonni! Russia was very good, and honestly it was a solid testament to his game. I've always struggled playing as Russia, and he taught me a lot on how to play a better game of it. :) Thanks, Josef!

[IRidePigs]

Not seeing what an alliance with IRidePigs would be like is a legit regret I had in this game. 

Many such cases. I had great fun with this game, so hopefully I'll get the opportunity to ally myself with you all in the future!

[DougJoe]

Not sure if I should post here or in a new thread, but is anyone interested in doing another one of these GR challenge things, say, after the new year?

[IRidePigs]

Not sure if I should post here or in a new thread, but is anyone interested in doing another one of these GR challenge things, say, after the new year?

I'd love to!