seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

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Jables
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#41 Post by Jables » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:04 pm

teccles wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:02 pm
I have joined. I'll use the notes feature to make sure I have a good record of my thoughts :-)
I'm in one of the other games and have been doing this — writing notes as I think through the turns. It is great fun in itself. Excellent idea.

ColoBoy
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#42 Post by ColoBoy » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:47 pm

Yes, excellent suggestion and it's great to see all the interest, including setting up a 4th game. Thanks all

RoganJosh
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#43 Post by RoganJosh » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:05 pm

I would have joined had I not been swamped with other things at the moment!
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jasnah
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#44 Post by jasnah » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:01 am

I'd play a squares one

Hithlum
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#45 Post by Hithlum » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:50 pm

My notes are turning into a journal :-D

Pinecone333
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#46 Post by Pinecone333 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:30 pm

Same lol. I'm excited to read everyone else's reflections.
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Jables
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#47 Post by Jables » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:01 pm

I see that game #4 has been concluded. Cool to watch!
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=340030

I hope the After Action Reports for game 4 will be posted publicly, really interested to read all of them.
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nesdunk14
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#48 Post by nesdunk14 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:42 am

This is a great idea. If anyone else is interested in setting up another game or two I'd be very down.
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Lukas Podolski
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#49 Post by Lukas Podolski » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:20 am

This reminds me of brotherbored's gunboat journal on his blog.

I actually mimicked his journal in a simplified way using Excel to note the predicted and actual moves, as well as my analysis for the current and next turns.

I have to say it's a fun and satisfying way to learn.
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Brinbino
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#50 Post by Brinbino » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:32 pm

Lukas Podolski wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:20 am
I actually mimicked his journal in a simplified way using Excel to note the predicted and actual moves, as well as my analysis for the current and next turns.
That's a brilliant idea, and so much more useful than the weird stream of consciousness I have going on as I slowly descend into the madness only found in the silence of gunboat...
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billb
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#51 Post by billb » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:59 pm

does this mean you cant quit in the middle of the game if you dont like how its going? ;)
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Lukas Podolski
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#52 Post by Lukas Podolski » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:20 am

Brinbino wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:32 pm
Lukas Podolski wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:20 am
I actually mimicked his journal in a simplified way using Excel to note the predicted and actual moves, as well as my analysis for the current and next turns.
That's a brilliant idea, and so much more useful than the weird stream of consciousness I have going on as I slowly descend into the madness only found in the silence of gunboat...
Yep but there needs to be a certain level of discipline and time commitment - for my game it went on for 1.5 months so for 40-something days and nights I had been doing this.
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Hithlum
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#53 Post by Hithlum » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:58 am

Although I didn't participated in #4 it is really interesting to read the notes posted so far. I hope other players follow Russia and France in this!
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pyxxy
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#54 Post by pyxxy » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:26 pm

I totally forgot about posting the EOG in this thread, I was France in game #4, the link is in the game's public chat but I'll post it here as well

(I think this will work? idr what the forum lets one post regarding links) https://pastebin.com/P0bDP6Ca
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AnimalsCS
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#55 Post by AnimalsCS » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:11 pm

To respond to some of the stuff in game 4 that I was seeing:

• I think the Pie-Tyr move from France was interesting. I like your analysis that this was likely a mistake, since I may have made this mistake sometime in a future game if not for seeing this example. However, I think you did not use that army optimally and it might have been way more effective. Firstly, Bohemia is a pretty lame center to be in. You only border Mun (unlike Sil), but can't retreat to Pie (unlike Tyr). I think if you had moved to Silesia much sooner, you might have paralyzed Germany into attempting to protect two home centers simultaneously. Also, you can reasonably expect Germany to make attacks on Burgundy when the situation looks right, so you could have potentially laid a trap for Germany so you could sneak into Munich (preferably on a fall turn). Another possibility was supporting Italy into Munich from Tyr! Italy can't hold Munich long-term, but if losing Munich collapses Germany's defenses, you might be able to take all three home centers within a couple years.
• I believe France suffered greatly from the problem of making weak attacks in all directions. They attacked Germany, but before trying to get anything out of it, then they chose to attack England, but once again decided to move away and captured Tunis. This just ended up allowing Austria and England to benefit from a weakened Italy and Germany respectively. It makes it seem like they were not focused on either being faithful to allies or trying to solo, which are both reasons why people get cut from draws.
• I think Italy might have been more successful this game if they have moved Ven-Pie in spring of 1902 since Turkey was too well defended and France had committed to an attack on Germany.
• Austria played a good game, but was never close to soloing. I think had they stabbed Russia in fall of 1903 there might have been a path to a solo – getting two neighbors to fight is great, but then you have to capitalize on that and Constantinople was not really significant.
• Russia, (I haven't read through your whole journal so apologies if this is answered) why didn't you build more fleets in StP? Russian solos often involve a concentration of northern fleets and you had a couple opportunities to make that happen. For example, you could have convoyed Lvn-Fin after building fleet StP nc in Winter 1906.
• England, I like the way you defended against France quite a lot and in general well-played. If I were to critique anything, I think you often had fleets parked on land while if you had built more armies and convoyed them, then those fleets could be exerting their full power at sea. Notice how many units you needed to conquer Scandinavia.
• To echo the opinions of France and Russia, I believe Germany needed to allow Russia to capture Sweden in 1901. That one strategic mistake, plus incorrectly guessing about Denmark in Fall 1902, was enough to result in their elimination.

Maybe I rambled a bit, but I found this a really interesting game to spectate and look forward to discussing the other games when they conclude. Especially looking forward to people criticizing me so I can improve!

pyxxy
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#56 Post by pyxxy » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:27 am

AnimalsCS wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:11 pm
To respond to some of the stuff in game 4 that I was seeing:

• I think the Pie-Tyr move from France was interesting. I like your analysis that this was likely a mistake, since I may have made this mistake sometime in a future game if not for seeing this example. However, I think you did not use that army optimally and it might have been way more effective. Firstly, Bohemia is a pretty lame center to be in. You only border Mun (unlike Sil), but can't retreat to Pie (unlike Tyr). I think if you had moved to Silesia much sooner, you might have paralyzed Germany into attempting to protect two home centers simultaneously. Also, you can reasonably expect Germany to make attacks on Burgundy when the situation looks right, so you could have potentially laid a trap for Germany so you could sneak into Munich (preferably on a fall turn). Another possibility was supporting Italy into Munich from Tyr! Italy can't hold Munich long-term, but if losing Munich collapses Germany's defenses, you might be able to take all three home centers within a couple years.
As the France in game #4, in my opinion, I actually explained my reasoning for flipping against England in my notes from A02 and W02/S03. And my notes are quite relevant to your points ;)

I'll use quotes for excerpts from my Pastebin/notes:
"A02:
I'm back in this awful situation. BOH is useless, SIL is better but to what end? Committing to the war against Germany might not be smart any more, seeing as England will benefit the most in the short term. I think in future games, when MAR does not bounce in PIE, maybe it should just head back to MAR?"
In my notes:
- I'm aware that BOH is a bad place to be, and that SIL is better
- I'm despondent about the roaming army being crap
- I'm beginning to question if I should continue to attack Germany. This is while deciding my moves for A02!

Later in the A02 notes:
"You know what. Let's predict that Munich moves, Ruhr support holds BEL, and try to use BOH to slip into MUN. Why not. I can defend messing up with SPA -> MAR and PAR -> GAS next spring. It's very easy to turtle on 5 centers as France.
BOH -> MUN
PAR support (german) MUN -> BUR, in case of planned bounce"
- I saw the same support Germany out of Munich trick that you did. Since Germany didn't fall for it in A02 and they entered Burgundy, that trick was no longer worth trying for after A02.

More from my notes:
"W02/S03:
Pretty much what I expected from England for builds. Keeps things safe and sane.
The problem is, England is beginning to get out of control. At some point I’m not going to have the fleets to fight them off. So I should try and get my roaming army disbanded somehow?"
England has already captured all of Scandinavia by the end of 1902. Continuing to attack Germany is a bad idea because the moment Germany is mortally wounded, 7+ center England and all their fleets are going to come after me (it's not personal, that's just solo-attempt business).

Further collapsing Germany by supporting Italy into Munich, aka I'm not even getting the center + the build from furthering the collapse of Germany, and I'm giving it to someone who can attack me? Or less hyperbolically, someone who can use another build to resolve the south faster than Germany and I can reverse the north in our favor? I really disagree with this idea. It's "cool" as in, it's an interesting/different than the usual kind of play, but it's not a smart one, imo.

I would even go so far as to say that not supporting Burgundy back into Munich in Spring 1903 was a pretty big mistake on my part. I had a moveset that perfectly defend against Burgundy capturing any of my centers in the fall. I should have been aware that Germany would see that and retreat from BUR, or they would see that we needed to form F/G as a response to England snowballing. Either way, the better move was to help Germany back into Munich. Even if they don't do it in the spring, they will see the signal and react accordingly in the fall.
---------------------------------
(took an IRL break and thought of another way to explain my reasoning for why I gave up so quickly on the E/F)
In this Brotherbored article, go scroll down to the "Division of Spoils" section. I want to figure out how to color maps like the E/F center map is colored in this article because I think it's incredibly useful.
https://brotherbored.com/how-england-ca ... diplomacy/

Look at that color map and then compare it to game #4 at the end of 1902. Look and see which centers England had already captured, and which centers that I as France had already captured.

I had nothing from Italy and I wasn't going to get anything any time soon. I had just lost Belgium and with Germany in Burgundy, there was no guarantee that I recapture it within the year, as well as a near 0% chance that I capture Munich, even with an army roaming in TYR/BOH/SIL.

In the meantime, England was poised to pick up HOL or KIE in the next year, or both, and then fairly easily proceed to work on BER. All while I struggle to take BEL and with no pressure in the north from Russia. All this is to say, continuing my alliance with England was mostly going to result in centers for England and nothing for me as France. So I absolutely had to switch sides and help Germany, at least until I could get into position to profit from taking down Germany.

Pinecone333
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#57 Post by Pinecone333 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:31 am

AnimalsCS wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:11 pm
• Russia, (I haven't read through your whole journal so apologies if this is answered) why didn't you build more fleets in StP? Russian solos often involve a concentration of northern fleets and you had a couple opportunities to make that happen. For example, you could have convoyed Lvn-Fin after building fleet StP nc in Winter 1906.
In retrospect, that's almost certainly what I should have done. At the time, I was deathly afraid that Austria would backstab me at any moment, and I figured that an army would allow me to defend myself if he went for it whereas a fleet would not. I think that I was perhaps overestimating the likelihood of an Austrian backstab was for pretty much the entire game.

Although, that said, I think it's possible the extra army did help to dissuade an Austrian attack--I'd like to hear the Austrian player's perspective on that.

Pinecone333
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#58 Post by Pinecone333 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:33 am

Incidentally, here's a link to my (Russia from game #4) journal for anyone who wants to read it: https://pastebin.com/xTF5XcLH
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jasnah
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#59 Post by jasnah » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:29 pm

Wondering whether I'll get any satisfaction from writing an endgame tirade on Game 1.

Pinecone333
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Re: seeking players for gunboat with EOG discussion so we can improve

#60 Post by Pinecone333 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:06 pm

Wow; congrats to Germany. I wonder if any of the other games will end in solos.

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