1v1 practice

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mhsmith0
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Re: 1v1 practice

#21 Post by mhsmith0 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:55 pm

I think it's a bit of both, but I think the lost coin flip whereby Germany gets into Tyrolia is probably not quite as bad as the one you ended up with

I think you're also in much better shape if you build a rome army instead of a rome fleet, particularly since Germany vacated MAO by taking Holland with his navy for some reason. A rome army gives you a lot more options for what to do with A Ven in spring 1903, and the fleet really wasn't going to matter since you'd be able to lock down MAO anyway.

For instance:
A Ven-Tyr supported by Tri And Vie, and A Rum attacks Bud, along with A Rom-Ven to avoid the cheap "retreat to Pie then grab Ven" bit. You could also run A Ven-Pie and A Rom-Ven, or A Ven-Tri along with A Tri-Ser to cut Germany's front lines off
etc
1

teccles
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Re: 1v1 practice

#22 Post by teccles » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:22 pm

That makes total sense. One thing I've started to see in GvI (which I'm quite new to, and still learning how to think about), is that Italy doesn't gain that much from ruling the seas beyond control of MAO. MAO itself is big, but devoting more than is needed to control MAO is wasteful, because it's not that painful for Germany to have one fleet break through.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#23 Post by mhsmith0 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:27 pm

MAO is helpful in a few ways

1) Keeping Germany out of Portugal/Spain/Marseilles - without those centers, he needs to get into the Balkans, but with those centers, he's just gonna beat you almost always.

2) Breakthrough potential / turning 17 into 18. It's pretty easy to end a game on a draw along the Juggernaut line (Italy gets the south centers including Por/Spa/Mar; Germany gets the northern centers including War/Mos/Sev). Getting that 18th cetner is a lot easier if you can not just get to MAO but get beyond it. A fleet in NAO, IRI, ENG etc puts heavy pressure on Brest and the English centers. If you can hold Germany out of the Balkans, but he can hold you out of the Russian centers, then the only real way to win is to break through the far west and slap down a green onto Brest/Lvp/Lon.

MAO definitely won't save you if Germany's rolling overall, but losing it to Germany can lose you the game - once Germany forces Portugal and/or Marseilles, the game becomes FAR more difficult to hang on in. The main thing is figuring out the right level of resources to shove that way - enough to prevent MAO's loss but not so much as to weaken you critically elsewhere.

teccles
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Re: 1v1 practice

#24 Post by teccles » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Sounds about right - which all means that Italy shouldn't devote more than is needed to hold MAO, at least until further into the game than I did here. Thank you for your advice :-)

Squigs44
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Re: 1v1 practice

#25 Post by Squigs44 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:15 pm

I got a bit busy yesterday. Glad to see Percy and teccles got a game going. Since there has been increasing interest in this, and I am having a hard time keeping track of who has played who and how many games you want to play at a time, lets just make a sign-up type list:

1) Squigs44 (3-4 games at a time)
2) Ancient Memories (2-3 games?)
3) Peregrine Falcon (1 game)
4) teccles (? games)
5) BananaFang (? games) *advanced player
6) Percy Williams (? games)
7) PRINCE WILLIAM (? games)

As far as rolling out more games,
Ancient Memories and I agreed to rematch each other swapping countries, so we will play those games next. I think we are a pretty even matchup, so it will be interesting to see how this next set goes.
I will take on the challenge of playing you BananaFang (I will PM you when I have created the game).
Peregrine and I are still playing in a game.

Why don't we have teccles and Percy each play a game with PRINCE WILLIAM if that is alright with all of you.

If anyone wants out at anytime, just let me know, otherwise I will assume you want to keep playing new matchups, and will try to set those up.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#26 Post by Squigs44 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:51 pm

1v1 Practice FvA 1
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel
Opponent: Ancient Memories
Title: Austrian Blunders in 06

Spring 1901: I decide to go with the standard opening, and France does as well.
Fall 1901: A continuation of the standard; a bounce in Munich, so we each get 2 builds.
Winter 1901: I build 2 armies, intending to hit Munich/Berlin hard while starting to gather SCs to the southeast. The French fleet in Marseilles worries me a little, since my weakness as Austria is the southern skirmishes.

Spring 1902:Budapest goes to Rum on route to Sev so that it can shoot up to St Pete. I was expecting a bounce in Munich, so this is a pleasant surprise. My armies can now secure Munich and Berlin this year. Unfortunately my south is looking worrisome.
Fall 1902: I move Munich to Kiel, which in hindsight was a bit greedy. I really do not have enough troops to hold that positioning, so I should have stayed in Munich. Regardless, I got my full build count with Sev, Naples, Berlin, and Kiel.
Winter 1902: I am struggling down south, so a fleet in Trieste is a must. 2 armies as well to chase down the SCs I need.

Spring 1903: I am worried that France is going to go into Ionian so I move Naples there in a bounce attempt. A bad guess, but really just a bad play. A bounce in Tyrolia works okay for me, and I actually make it into Munich.
Fall 1903: I have lost Rome, but I pick up Tunis. I also force myself into Venice which will come in handy later. I lose Kiel, which I have to disband. In hindsight, I really really should have pulled Berlin back to allow for a retreat. This was a bad play for me, as now I am outnumbered in Munich/Berlin. I make it into St Pete, so at least I am winning in the North.
Winter 1903: Again, a fleet and 2 armies.

Spring 1904: St Pete to Norway gives me an advantage there, but Denmark to Baltic worries me. I am able to hold onto Munich/Berlin this phase, but it is not looking good for me there. France now has Rome/Naples, so I am in need of some serious help there. Budapest to Serbia is the first step towards a rush finish that I am hoping for.
Fall 1904: As expected, I lose Berlin. I am able to take Sweden and Bulgaria, but I have lost out on Rome/Naples. A bounce in Tyrr and Tunis makes me hopeful though as I have managed to get Apu as well.
Winter 1904: With only one build this year, I put an army in Budapest to continue my only chance at victory - a rush.

Spring 1905: I make it into Naples and Norway, 2 SCs that I very badly need. Another bounce in the Tyrr is good as well, but France now has two armies on the Italian Peninsula. I trade Munich for Berlin, but France outdid me with a convoy! That lone army is going to make a rush very very difficult for me to attempt.
Fall 1905: The board is almost at a standstill. Bouncing in Tyrr, holding in Berlin, and bouncing in St Pete are big moments for me. While I lose Sweden, I pick up Norway, Ankara, Greece, and Naples. A rush might just be possible for me.
Winter 1905: At this point a fleet won't help me, so three armies are built to make one last push for victory.

Spring 1906: I make a mistake. A costly one. I move my fleet to Tyrrhenian and leave the Ionian open. This means that holding Tunis in the fall will be impossible. GoL can tap my fleet in Tyrr while NA and West Med force me out of Tunis. Allowing him into Tyrr would have been better, since it turns the automatic Tunis expulsion into a guessing game with Tunis and Naples. I am able to hang on to my other SCs though (with the exception of Warsaw which I can take back next year, and Berlin which I trade for Kiel, which sets me up for an 18 SC finish).
Fall 1906: I make another costly mistake. I could have forced a win. With my current moves, I guaranteed 17 SCs. However, I could have forced Rome with the following moves: Ven -> Tus, Tyrr -> Rome, Nap S Tyrr -> Rome, Tyrolia -> Ven, Trieste S Tyrolia -> Ven. Instead of using Venice to support the attack on Rome (which was cut by Pied) I should have used Venice to cut the support given by Tuscany. Then, Tyrolia and Trieste could have made sure that France did not sneak into Venice. A tactics blunder that cost me the game.

1907 and onward:
At this point I have lost. I temporarily take Rome the next turn, but France takes it back. I bounce at Sweden, but France holds me off. Munich and Berlin are rock solid against my attacks, and France is able to take his remaining SCs plus Tunis and Naples for the win.

Tl;dr:
I almost succeeded at getting a (slow) Austrian rush, but due to some tactical errors in the south, I lost the game. Early on I overextended in Munich/Berlin, which also cost me my positioning there.

What I learned about Austria:
You have to be precise. Tactics are really important for Austria. If Austria makes one or two blunders, France can punish Austria, and there is no coming back from it. Austria must win early, or else he has lost, and an early mistake means a loss.

What I learned about France:
Don't ever give up, and keep the pressure on. France's pressure on Munich/Berlin meant he got both of them after I controlled both and Kiel early in the game. France's pressure down south really hurt me as I made some misplays.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#27 Post by Squigs44 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 am

If you want to see a clean Austrian Rush, this is my first game pulling it off. It can be done.

1v1 Practice FvA 3
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel
Opponent: teccles
Title: Big Time Rush

1901: Classic openings, nothing strange at all. I am glad to see an army build in Marseilles 01, since French fleets in the Med terrify me as Austria.

Spring 1902: A bounce in Pie is good for me, as the French army build there is temporarily stymied. He doesn't take Munich, and neither do I, but I set myself up to be able to take it in the fall if needed.
Fall 1902: I take Berlin, and bounce him in Munich, which is good for me. He makes it into Piedmont, but without a fleet in the Med yet, I am okay with that. The French fleet in Norway means that I will have an easier time in Munich/Berlin, but I will miss out on St Pete.
Winter 1902: Lets get another fleet in the Med, since France is likely to build one this year, and two armies to start a rush.

Spring 1903: A bounce in Munich, which is alright with me. He makes it into Venice, but I expected that and brought Vienna down to Trieste to deal with that. A fleet in Tyrrhenian is good news for me, and my rush begins with Budapest to Serbia.
Fall 1903: I expel him out of Venice, and move to Rome expecting a bounce. Instead, he takes control of Tyrrhenian, and retreats to Apu, which is going to make things tricky for me. I know he is going to take Munich, so I use this turn to rotate Boh up to Silesia, which proves to be beneficial later.
Winter 1903: Again, a fleet and two armies is the perfect build for Austria.

Spring 1904: I reinforce the line at Munich/Berlin, and continue using my armies in the southeast to pick up SC's. Meanwhile, the south is a bit of a mess, so I decide to take control of things there. I take Tyrrhenian at the expense of giving up Tunis, but this sets me up perfectly to disband his army (which snuck into Naples) in the fall.
Fall 1904: Like I said, I am able to disband his army in Naples, and bounce him out of Ionian, which sets me up in good position to hold the Italian Peninsula. It is this phase that I realized two things: First, in order to get to 18, I am going to need either Tunis or St Pete. Second, if I can take one of those in 05, then I can also take the remaining SC's I need to win, as long as I can hold the ones I have. This is why I make the decision to move Silesia to Prussia. It sets me up to take St Pete in Fall 05. It risks the security of Berlin, but I doubt that France is going to use this phase to attack Berlin, and the risk ends up paying off.
Winter 1904: I really would have liked an army in Vienna for security, but I have already doubled down on an 05 finish, so I need armies to be able to take Serbia and Rum.

Spring 1905: Prussia moves to Livonia, making certain that I can take St Pete in the fall. This is a huge success for me, but I have to be able to hold my other SCs too. Silesia supports Berlin, making sure that I do not lose Berlin. Munich makes it into Bohemia, but that is okay, because Tyrolia bounced in Munich, meaning that Tyrolia can guard Vienna in the fall, and France doesn't have enough units around Berlin to take it. Success there. A bounce in the Ionian means that Rome and Naples are safe. Success there. Apu moves back to Venice for security, and the rest of my armies move into place to get to 18 SCs. At this point, I have ensured my victory.
Fall 1905: At this point, it is just making sure I enter in the correct moves. Livonia and Moscow force St Pete. Tyrolia bounces in Vienna. Silesia supports Berlin. Venice, Rome, and Naples are all able to hold. I pick up Con, Smyrna, Serbia, and Bulgaria. Game, set, match.


Tl;dr:
I recognized in 04 that an Austrian rush and an 05 victory was within reach so I made a gamble and it paid off. Austrian rushes can work really well, but you have to be able to see it about two years (or more) ahead of time.

What I learned about Austria:
Don't worry about taking all of Tunis/Munich/Berlin/St Pete. You only need two. If giving up one of those SC's helps you to secure another one and complete a rush, go for it.

What I learned about France:
You have to keep the pressure on Austria, especially if they look like they are going to rush. I think the one move that killed Austria was the Fall 04 moves around Munich/Berlin. He made a guess that I would leave Tyrolia, which, if correct, would have hurt me, but that really wasn't a wise guess. Tyrolia was tied up in Piedmont, so it wasn't going anywhere. If Munich had moved to Boh, Silesia, or Berlin, it would have ruined my gamble. *Side note: My army in Berlin should not have held, it should have supported the move to Silesia.

teccles
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Re: 1v1 practice

#28 Post by teccles » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:53 am

Thanks for your write-up! This was a good game, and you executed the rush well.

My regrets in this game are over my 1904/1905 play. Your threat to St P was clearly the way for you to win the game, and I recognised that too late - in Autumn 1904, I should have at least strongly considered a move to Silesia or Bohemia, which I didn't. And even if I was poking at Tyrolia, I should have held Marseilles in place (or perhaps moved it to Burgundy, actually), so I'd have taken Tyrolia.

In Spring 1905, I guessed well but ruined that with a simple error in not supporting myself to Munich - I got my thinking in a muddle about that one.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#29 Post by Percy Williams » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:30 pm

Is there a German rush strategy? Because I that was basically what I did, and I feel like it could work in the future.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#30 Post by flash2015 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:56 pm

teccles wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:53 am
Thanks for your write-up! This was a good game, and you executed the rush well.

My regrets in this game are over my 1904/1905 play. Your threat to St P was clearly the way for you to win the game, and I recognised that too late - in Autumn 1904, I should have at least strongly considered a move to Silesia or Bohemia, which I didn't. And even if I was poking at Tyrolia, I should have held Marseilles in place (or perhaps moved it to Burgundy, actually), so I'd have taken Tyrolia.

In Spring 1905, I guessed well but ruined that with a simple error in not supporting myself to Munich - I got my thinking in a muddle about that one.
I think sending that third fleet south may have been a mistake (Fall 1903). You already were relatively strong down there. If you had sent that north it could have helped you hold StP.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#31 Post by BananaFang » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:57 pm

You Say "W" I Say "Double Me"
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel
Bananafang vs. Ancient Memories

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x7k ... sp=sharing

I wrote it up in a Google Doc so I (and you) could see the map next to my comments. I may do some more editing but it is complete enough to share I think. You can comment in the doc itself if you so desire.

mhsmith0
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Re: 1v1 practice

#32 Post by mhsmith0 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:33 am

Spring 1902 - if you’re gonna abandon pie you might as well go whole hog and run bur-mun as that becomes a STRONG force in Munich if you can take it there.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#33 Post by BananaFang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:39 pm

mhsmith0 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:33 am
Spring 1902 - if you’re gonna abandon pie you might as well go whole hog and run bur-mun as that becomes a STRONG force in Munich if you can take it there.
I wouldn't want to leave Mar AND Spa empty, but I definitely should have considered GoL-Spa or GoL-Mar instead so that I could send Bur toward Mun. I failed the Mun/Tun balancing act.

mhsmith0
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Re: 1v1 practice

#34 Post by mhsmith0 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:22 pm

Given the fall 1901 position, as France i think the generically optimal approach is

Build A Mar
Build A Paris

Spring 1902: one of a few approaches
1) Bur-Ruhr, Par-Bur, Mar-Pie, Bel-Hol, Lon-NTH
If Mar-Pie bounces, then you can go Mar-Spa for the +1 there, and the extra +1 allows you to convoy Hol-Nor (which forces Austria's northern army into a fully defensive holding posture for multiple years) while also going Ruhr-Kiel to hit 3 builds, then you throw down two fleet builds and go aggressively for Tunis starting 1903 - F Brest + F Mar, plus a 1903 F Mar build forces Austria to hard defend Tunis, and if he doesn't, then you just take it
If Mar-Pie doesn't bounce, that means that Austria is in Munich, and you can go NTH-Nor (+1), Hol-Kiel (+1), and Bur-Mun supported by Ruhr (probably fails but you'll blast him out in the spring which is acceptable). A Pie (from Mar) can then take a 50-50 chance at Tyrolia or Venice - A Tyr is an EXTREMELY powerful spot for a French army in 1902, and if you get into Venice instead there's your third build and Austria might end up +2 instead of +3 (adds STP/Mun/Tun but loses Ven)

2) Bur-Mun, Par-Gas (or Par-Bur if you feel LUCKY), Lon-NTH, Bel-Hol, Mar-Pie
If Mar-Pie bounces, then you're in Munich (+1, worst case you retreat to Berlin which is also +1), you can convoy into Norway (+1), and you'll take Spain (+1) with your other Gas/Mar army moving to Burgundy in the fall
If Mar-Pie doesn't bounce, then you instead bounced Munich, and then Par-Gas continues onto Spain (+1), NTH-Norway (+1), Hol-Kiel (+1), and you have the option of moving Bur into Ruhr (to secure Munich for future turns), plus you have your A Pie to try and run a 50-50 shot of messing with Austria.

I think your wide range of tactical opportunities makes A Mar a drastically superior build here. You can make a case for F Brest instead of A Paris (which then goes MAO in spring and continues to Spa or WMED depending on spring outcomes), but you really really want A Mar to maximize the options at your disposal.

PS I think your wide range of tactical opportunities here is why I think that Austria opening to Rum-Sev is FAR inferior to Gal-War in this type of opening concept. As Austria, this opening is basically sacrificing a lot of equity if France opens to Piedmont, in exchange for having a very strong presence in Germany and a very realistic chance of taking and holding Munich, Berlin, or both. By sending Budapest east instead of north, you lose out on those chances. Whereas if you take spring 1902 picture and slap on an army in Warsaw going to silesia in spring 1902, along with A Tri-Ven, A Vie-Boh, and A Tyr-Mun, then Austria gets to call his fall shot: Tyr-Mun supported by Boh and SIl (guaranteed to work) or Tyr-Mun supported by Boh alone, with Sil-Berlin securing that key center as well.

teccles
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Re: 1v1 practice

#35 Post by teccles » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:22 am

One minor thing on that PS - moving Sil-Ber in Autumn 1902 seems pretty scary, because then a convoy to Norway takes Moscow in 1903, which is pretty grim for Austria. I've only seen that happen once, but it was pretty decisive.

I'm up for another game or two (either GvI or FvA) if anyone else is keen.

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Re: 1v1 practice

#36 Post by mhsmith0 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:27 am

If France convoys to Scandinavia when you’re NOT going to STP, that means he’s basically abandoning Munich and Berlin to you (and MAYBE you get past there into Ruhr/Kiel/etc which is nearly gg). And it’s not super hard to expel a single French army from Moscow/Warsaw area in 1904 or so; it’s a super isolated unit and you’re gonna be spamming Vienna and Budapest army builds that have little better to do than blast it away.
1

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Re: 1v1 practice

#37 Post by mhsmith0 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:38 am

One examples of France mis-convoying (and I’m sure I’ve seen others and probably did it myself but hard to search for it)

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel

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Re: 1v1 practice

#38 Post by teccles » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:24 am

(I hope everyone's OK with this turning into a rambling 1v1 strategy/advice thread! I'm finding it really useful.)

That seems a funny example - I'd wouldn't convoy to Norway in 1902 if I hadn't build a Paris army in 1902!

I dug out the game where I had success with that convoy - http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel. In that one, the threats from Moscow and a Baltic fleet tied up a lot of Austria's resources, and they didn't have enough for both those fronts and Tunis. Maybe this game was atypical, but it certainly doesn't make me think France is abandoning Munich and Berlin with that convoy - the fleet coming in to the Baltic in 1903 means Austria would have to commit unreasonable resources to a proper defense of Germany.

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