Elimination Conditions

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Sploack
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Elimination Conditions

#1 Post by Sploack » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:41 pm

So, everybody knows you are eliminated (completely destroyed) if you lose every supply center. But are you also eliminated if you have no more armies/fleets and no way to rebuild one?

In this game on the app Conspiracy ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1PvYpAc6H0 ) Germany gets reduced to owning only Paris, and its last army gets eventually destroyed. Of course, lacking a home supply center, Germany can't rebuild. I assumed Germany would remain alive with Paris until someone occupies it, but apparently in Conspiracy Germany is considered eliminated and Paris becomes neutral. Is this the general rule for diplomacy? I'm sure it doesn't happen often. Would the supply center revert to neutral on webdiplomacy? If so, can someone link some other game in which this happened?
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jay65536
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#2 Post by jay65536 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:56 pm

This is a controversial topic and you are likely to get some disagreement.

I for one believe that having no units on the board while also not owning any of your own home centers should count as an elimination.

Claesar
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#3 Post by Claesar » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:02 pm

It would not count as an elimination on webDip.

teccles
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#4 Post by teccles » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:09 pm

https://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=242215 is a particularly extreme and silly demonstration of this.
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stefanodangello
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#5 Post by stefanodangello » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:01 am

Oddly, this has happened to me (and to Jamiet99uk) in this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel. Personally, as someone who has several times taken actions to keep someone else alive into the draw, I can't see why such a peaceful exiled government should not be recognized as a legitimate player.

Sploack
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#6 Post by Sploack » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:17 am

Wow, that game you linked is the perfect example of this, with both France and Russia in exile and with no troops. Very cool. I agree that it shouldn't count as an elimination, so I approve webdip's stance on this, but I admit that I would probably kill off such a country during a game.

There are only three situations in which i wouldn't that I can think of:
1) I can solo without taking out the defenseless player. In that case I would let him survive.
2) Taking the defenseless player out would let another player solo. In this case I would include him in the draw.
3) It's a SoS Scoring game and eliminating the player would give me like 1 extra point. I would sacrifice the point for his survival.

Was there some other reason you and Russia were spared in that game and included in an equal draw?
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A_Tin_Can
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#7 Post by A_Tin_Can » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:20 am

The rulebook doesn't say - it talks about eliminated countries, but only indirectly.

It does say that you can keep playing if you lose all your home centres but still have units.

It also says that a draw is shared equally between all players with units still on the board - so, technically you can't be in a (rulebook) draw if you have centres but no units.

If you're playing an alternative scoring system where centre count matters I think it shouldn't count as an elimination.

The rulebook has no mechanism at all for centres to become neutral again, so I'm a little uncomfortable with the assumption that a centre should be neutral again if it's not a home centre and the player has no remaining units. However, if the draw mechanism says you must have units, then the player is functionally eliminated since they can't win or draw. I suppose pragmatically it makes sense to mark the centre neutral then, even though it doesn't feel right.

Sploack
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#8 Post by Sploack » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:53 pm

I think giving the player the right to draw, like webdiplomacy does, is the right choice, even though it's probably not what the creators of the game intended.

jay65536
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Re: Elimination Conditions

#9 Post by jay65536 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:21 pm

I will note that the language about "still having units on the board" to be allowed to participate in a draw is probably antiquated.

In older versions of the rules, the victory criterion was listed as 18 units, not 18 centers. That is a potentially big difference, and it was changed. Similarly, I have to imagine that the intent behind the draw rule is more aligned with saying you have to have centers than that you have to have units.

On the other hand, I once read an article by Allan Calhamer where he basically says that the spirit of the draw rule is that draws should include any power who theoretically could win if the game continued. Following this idea, a player who has no units on the board but still owns a home center should NOT count as eliminated, as that player could rebuild; but a player who has no units or home centers should count as eliminated if you use that criterion. That's why my opinion is what I laid out in my first post.
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