Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

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diplomatt13
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Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#1 Post by diplomatt13 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:57 am

I'm sorry but when I played back 70's and 80's, seems the game was played with more honor. You didn't have to lie to win. The game was more like chess and you had to think about moves not simply lie. Has the ability of the average gamer dropped so low, that lying to gain the advantage has become the norm?
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fourofswords
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#2 Post by fourofswords » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:05 am

I have noticed that many players have only one weapon, the stab. Others use diplomacy, which is a many sided sword. In my opinion the way to deal with the stabbers is to ally with like minded diplomats.

President Eden
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#3 Post by President Eden » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:28 am

diplomatt13 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:57 am
I'm sorry but when I played back 70's and 80's, seems the game was played with more honor. You didn't have to lie to win. The game was more like chess and you had to think about moves not simply lie. Has the ability of the average gamer dropped so low, that lying to gain the advantage has become the norm?
It's the opposite: even an average player is aware of stalemate lines and, even if not capable of seeing when they need to be formed of his own ability, will almost certainly be made aware by a more experienced person playing. Solo wins in this game are damn impossible against remotely competent opposition and necessarily harder when you restrict your strategies by refusing, for instance, to lie.

I think the average player has probably always been too jumpy to stab because the game has always been marketed on the mischief enabled by being able to make verbal commitments without being forced to abide by them. But I also doubt that players have suddenly become worse with multiple extra decades of developing a fundamental theory of Diplomacy play.
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Mercy
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#4 Post by Mercy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:15 am

Many games here are anonymous, and in anonymous games, one doesn't have to build up a reputation over multiple games. That may have to do with the increase in lying. Personally I find the game to be way better if it is played anonymously, as I dislike different games influencing each other.
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SirThursday
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#5 Post by SirThursday » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:21 am

I don't think so. Generally, when I play, I'm honest with everyone, and when I see a better strategy become possible with a particular player, I commit to a particular arrangement. That may mean lying to other people, or "talking strategy" with folks I have no intention of cooperating with, but it's done in the service of the first/prioritized commitment. I also generally play defensively, so that I'm not leaving any front blatantly open to a neighbor if I can help it.

For the folks who talk about "the stab", how are we defining this? So Venice took Trieste, big deal. It's not like that was unexpected. Taking a single center, even a home center, is more of a nuisance than a "stab". Even after taking a few small losses, it is possible to come back for a draw/solo. I would say that a true "stab" takes enough centers away from a neighbor that they're basically finished by the end of the next year. When they were expecting you to support them, or leave their flank open, and you strike for +2 at their expense in the "early game". This is only feasible if you have at least one other committed ally, or else you risk uniting the board against you. I don't think true "Stab"s happen very often; much more likely are selfish, small gains, based on the idea that you can go alone.
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SirThursday
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#6 Post by SirThursday » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:24 am

**Also I love anonymous games. It's not like the community here is small enough that you'll play with the same 6 people often anyway. Best experiences I've had have come from letting Pot size dictate who joins the game, rather than being scared of higher-rank players or stomping on new players. I think Anon is a great way to play

Farka
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#7 Post by Farka » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:32 am

I can't speak to how the game was played back in the 70's or 80's, but I do think that too many players' default setting is lying. Now I have no problem lying myself, but there has to be a purpose to it. Diplomacy is, to me, at its heart a game about building relationships on the board and that is hard to do if all you are doing is lying. Heck, there is nothing quite as satisfying as being invited in to your 18th SC by a player you have spent the whole game cultivating a relationship with.

To me lying is a last resort. But still something I do in every game.

Is the game played the same way today as in the 70's? Probably not, but playing styles change over time. For instance, I see way more Alpine chickens than I do Lepanto's these days.

Running man
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#8 Post by Running man » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:35 am

Totally agree! I always play the game in trust. Build up a good relationship with ally and fight for glory. Do not like to stab your colleague. It will be a hard feeling someone cheat you! But, it always happen. How happy when someone help you survive in the game instead to kick you out. Never mind, time is changing, it only a game.

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#9 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:50 am

If you solo from time to time you're doing it right. If you never solo you're doing it wrong. It's that simple. Those who see the game as an exercise in forming a game long alliance have misunderstood the concept and are robbing their fellow players of an enjoyable experience.
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dancing queen
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#10 Post by dancing queen » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:06 pm

OP: Where did you play back in the day - were you part of a F2F group that had its own internal sense of what was right and what was wrong?

I've been playing slightly less long than that - 90s when I got serious - but in general I'd say that there are a lot more casual players than there used to be. The internet has enabled a broader range of players to access the game, they are generally younger than the war-gaming crowd back in the day. They hear about this game that "ruins friendships" and figure that the whole point of the game is to be as big a liar as they can.

There are places where that's not the norm, but if you are getting into games with randos on the interwebs, sure, you might run into that more.
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ubercacher16
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#11 Post by ubercacher16 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:50 am
If you solo from time to time you're doing it right. If you never solo you're doing it wrong. It's that simple. Those who see the game as an exercise in forming a game long alliance have misunderstood the concept and are robbing their fellow players of an enjoyable experience.
I agree completely.

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#12 Post by TrPrado » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:12 pm

I vividly remember at one point being honest around an endgame to prove a point and ending up solo'ing because I was more likeable than the other large power competing against me who was a frequent liar.

`ZaZaMaRaNDaBo`
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#13 Post by `ZaZaMaRaNDaBo` » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:35 pm

Speaking from personal experience, I used to win a lot more when I lied frequently as a teenager. Now that I'm in my mid-twenties I have become more agreeable and I win a lot less, but I draw almost every game. It's a trade-off. If you win without stabbing then the other players are either incompetent or too emotionally attached to an alliance. Let's be honest, stalemate lines in Diplomacy are too easy to reach for an actual moves outplay as suggested by diplomatt...

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#14 Post by ghug » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:03 pm

I don't get this impression at all. The casual players are often too friendly to lie, and the more serious ones know that it should be done sparingly. The number of players, even good ones, who are actually good at lying is even lower.
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diplomatt13
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#15 Post by diplomatt13 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:05 am

I appreciate all the responses. I'm sorry, but I'm new to the internet diplomacy and needed to know what to expect. Sure, in the days of wooden pieces on a card table in the garage, face to face, you still had to backstab to win outright. I've started 4 games, in all 4, people say they want to start an alliance and 3 of the 4 stabbed me the 1st turn, that would never had happened. I mean just don't say anything, I'll know. The only reason I can figure is they aren't good enough to win on a level playing field, so they need that initial sucker punch.
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#16 Post by Yonni » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Hopefully you've just had a string of bad luck on the site. Keep going at it and hopefully you'll find some more amicable opponents.

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#17 Post by swordsman3003 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:19 pm

Most Diplomacy games, even ones played online, don't involve that much lying. If you feel you are being excessively lied to, maybe you're doing something that makes players want to lie to you.

For example, some players enjoy the simplicity and ease of simply presuming that their rivals are telling the truth at the start of the game. This a dangerous attitude, because you don't have to trust other players at the start. You're making a huge gamble that might pay off once in a while, but will often result in a bad outcome for you. If your rivals are experienced players, they know that this type of trusty player is easy to predate upon because this player can be manipulated into lunging into weak positions that risk their defenses.

If you declare how honest you are and how much you hate lying at the start of the game, you might come across as an overly-trusting player. Experienced Diplomacy players expect a certain amount of backstabbing in the game, and therefore interpret these bold claims as either naive or lies, neither of which make a good impression.

If you're outraged enough about being lied to in a game of Diplomacy to complain about that fact on the forum, you might be this type of trusty player I am describing.

Consider this advice: decrease how much trust you place in other players without some showing of good faith. Ask for small favors and see if they abide. Play defensively until you understand what is happening.
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purevital
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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#18 Post by purevital » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:28 pm

The turning points of a Diplomacy game are based on when the lie is going to come.

What annoys me is when people are obviously lying and hoping you will do what they say. "Oh you only have one supply centre, help me in this war and we will achieve a draw". It's like "Really? You honestly think I'll believe that?"

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#19 Post by Claesar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:35 pm

purevital wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:28 pm
The turning points of a Diplomacy game are based on when the lie is going to come.

What annoys me is when people are obviously lying and hoping you will do what they say. "Oh you only have one supply centre, help me in this war and we will achieve a draw". It's like "Really? You honestly think I'll believe that?"
Ah, but do you have a better plan? Losing with grace isn't worth much either. Try to maneuver yourself into a position of relevance (on the stalemate line) so it's much harder to eliminate you.

Chris explains it much better here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_s02nHh1TE

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Re: Has Diplomacy Regressed to Just Lying?

#20 Post by Octavious » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:56 pm

diplomatt13 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:05 am
I appreciate all the responses. I'm sorry, but I'm new to the internet diplomacy and needed to know what to expect. Sure, in the days of wooden pieces on a card table in the garage, face to face, you still had to backstab to win outright. I've started 4 games, in all 4, people say they want to start an alliance and 3 of the 4 stabbed me the 1st turn, that would never had happened. I mean just don't say anything, I'll know. The only reason I can figure is they aren't good enough to win on a level playing field, so they need that initial sucker punch.
Why on earth would you want a level playing field? If I thought that a cheap lie at the start of a game would significantly boost my chances of winning I'd do it every time. The only reason I don't do that is because it doesn't work.
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