Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

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Johnny Big Horse
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Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#1 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:37 pm

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=436845

I am Russia
I have Bud, Rum, Gal
Aus has Ser, Tri, Vie
Turkey as Bul

Ser tried to take Bud, with support from Vie and Tri
I double supported Bud, because I knew Austria would try to take it.
It held

I had Bud support Bul to Ser, just for the hell of it, perhaps signaling to the bot I am on its team

And Bul ends up taking Ser.

How is that? They cut my support by attacking, right?

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#2 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:38 pm

so, because Bud was attacked, I would think, it could not help Bul get into Ser

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#3 Post by captainmeme » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:47 pm

This is one of those exceptions in the rulebook - a unit can't cut support against itself (unless it dislodges the unit it's attacking, but that's irrelevant here).

Since Ser is the attacker, and Ser is also the province Bud's support is against, Ser's attack cannot cut Bud unless it dislodges it.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#4 Post by rosaville » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:55 pm

It is explained well above but I always like to think about it as what is happening in real life

When you cut support you are in essence stopping a unit supporting another attack by distracting those troops (i.e., that unit has to focus on you instead now). In this situation Budapest's "job" is supporting an attack on Serbia so it can't be "distracted" by the Serbian unit attacking it - hence the support is not cut

Maybe I'm weird but thinking of it in this way always helped me get it haha
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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#5 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:29 pm

rosaville wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:55 pm
It is explained well above but I always like to think about it as what is happening in real life

When you cut support you are in essence stopping a unit supporting another attack by distracting those troops (i.e., that unit has to focus on you instead now). In this situation Budapest's "job" is supporting an attack on Serbia so it can't be "distracted" by the Serbian unit attacking it - hence the support is not cut

Maybe I'm weird but thinking of it in this way always helped me get it haha
This is where I just am dim, I guess.
I like that you put it in simple terms... but I don't get it still.

Any country's job could be supporting an attack, so it prefers NOT to be distracted.
BUT, if a country attacks it, then support is cut...
Except here.

I think the rule might be
IF country X is attacking country Y, but cannot take it
And country Y is supporting country Z into country X, then the support holds.

But... I am incapable of committing this to memory. My mind won't register this. This is why I will always be a 2nd tier player.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#6 Post by Doom427 » Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:52 pm

I think of it as a balance aspect-

Two units will always beat one unit. So if one unit would beat two (such as it cutting support to an attack on itself), than we have an exception.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#7 Post by dipperjay » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:39 pm

It is neither of the above. The relevant rule here is that support cannot be cut by an attack from the territory to which the support was given. In this case, Austria’s attack on Bud failed because it was a standoff (3 against 3). But because Bud supported an attack on Ser, and this is the unit that also attacked Bud, your support remains valid and hence the Turkish units dislodges Ser (2-1).

In real life - the Ser unit could not overcome the resistance in Bud, but because it neglected its defender it was attached from behind by the Bul unit :).

If Austria had attacked from Tri or Vie, it still would have been a standoff in Bud, however in that case, the Turkish attack on Ser would have failed, because support from Bud would have been cut.
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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#8 Post by dipperjay » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:41 pm

Apologies, I see now that JBG did mention this rule in his last post.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#9 Post by dipperjay » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:42 pm

dipperjay wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:39 pm
It is neither of the above. The relevant rule here is that support cannot be cut by an attack from the territory to which the support was given. In this case, Austria’s attack on Bud failed because it was a standoff (3 against 3). But because Bud supported an attack on Ser, and this is the unit that also attacked Bud, your support remains valid and hence the Turkish units dislodges Ser (2-1).

In real life - the Ser unit could not overcome the resistance in Bud, but because it neglected its defence, it was attacked and destroyed from behind by the Bul unit :).

If Austria had attacked from Tri or Vie, it still would have been a standoff in Bud, however in that case, the Turkish attack on Ser would have failed, because support from Bud would have been cut.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#10 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:49 pm

dipperjay wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:39 pm
It is neither of the above. The relevant rule here is that support cannot be cut by an attack from the territory to which the support was given. In this case, Austria’s attack on Bud failed because it was a standoff (3 against 3). But because Bud supported an attack on Ser, and this is the unit that also attacked Bud, your support remains valid and hence the Turkish units dislodges Ser (2-1).

In real life - the Ser unit could not overcome the resistance in Bud, but because it neglected its defender it was attached from behind by the Bul unit :).

If Austria had attacked from Tri or Vie, it still would have been a standoff in Bud, however in that case, the Turkish attack on Ser would have failed, because support from Bud would have been cut.
DipperJay... so tell me... and everyone else..., when you are playing the game, is this exception lodged in your head? I mean, if you were in the game mentioned above, and were either Austria or Russia, would you have predicted the outcome?

I just want to know how much an advantage other people have on me.

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Re: Can you explain this? Cut Support that works?

#11 Post by dipperjay » Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:10 pm

Yes, pretty much all the time. Whenever I analyze a tactical situation, I look at all the different way that support can be cut (and also at ways how a support cannot be cut. Sometimes it can be an advantage to attack with a unit that can be attacked from another territory, and not use it for support, because an attack move cannot be ‘cut’ but support can Especially when you can backfill the attacking unit with one of your own, and cause a standoff, it can be very powerful.

And often, it’s a guessing game, with two (or more) possibilities and a lucky guess for whoever turns out on top.

So in short, yes, the rule that support cannot be cut by a unit from the territory for which you provide the support is pretty standard material for most players, I would say.
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