Revenge vs Draw

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welshington
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Revenge vs Draw

#1 Post by welshington » Mon May 30, 2022 5:24 pm

I am new to online Diplomacy, but not new to Diplomacy in general. I am currently in an anonymous game where 2 players stabbed me, one by going all-in against me, which left their rear totally exposed. Another power may solo due to bad tactics by a third player and the one player going all-in against me. The 2 players that stabbed me want me to hold so they can go for a draw. I understand the points system here. If it was game with friends and family, I would fight it out and let the player solo.

What are the ethics on here, draw or revenge to let the one player solo?
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cjva
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#2 Post by cjva » Mon May 30, 2022 5:34 pm

You do you.

I sometimes draw and sometimes give away solos to teach another player a lesson. Often that lesson is that I dont fancy a specific players way to communicate or argue in the press.
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Gwyn
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#3 Post by Gwyn » Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm

I'm also new here, but if someone goes all-in against me and exposes their rear which allows someone else to get strong enough to solo on their own, I will commit myself to ensuring that the person who went all-in against me loses.

That needs to be part of the calculation, really - whether you fuck someone over so egregiously that they will devote themselves to your destruction.
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cdngooner
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#4 Post by cdngooner » Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm

I don't think there is an ethical question here. You are entitled to do whatever you feel best.

Myself, I take a total game theory approach to such questions. If the choice is between you force a Draw and get points, or another solos and you get nothing, I would take the points. If the choice is you lose either way, then it is entirely rational to throw to the solo.
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Hamilton Brian
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#5 Post by Hamilton Brian » Mon May 30, 2022 9:43 pm

cdngooner wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm
I don't think there is an ethical question here. You are entitled to do whatever you feel best.

Myself, I take a total game theory approach to such questions. If the choice is between you force a Draw and get points, or another solos and you get nothing, I would take the points. If the choice is you lose either way, then it is entirely rational to throw to the solo.
Yeah, but sometimes Austria stabbing Italy in 1901 leaves me with so much venom that I can't help BUT to go scorched earth on them. Now ask me how many times that has worked out in my favour, and you might get a sense as to why my policy might be shifting.
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cjva
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#6 Post by cjva » Tue May 31, 2022 9:53 am

Hamilton Brian wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 9:43 pm
cdngooner wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm
I don't think there is an ethical question here. You are entitled to do whatever you feel best.

Myself, I take a total game theory approach to such questions. If the choice is between you force a Draw and get points, or another solos and you get nothing, I would take the points. If the choice is you lose either way, then it is entirely rational to throw to the solo.
Yeah, but sometimes Austria stabbing Italy in 1901 leaves me with so much venom that I can't help BUT to go scorched earth on them. Now ask me how many times that has worked out in my favour, and you might get a sense as to why my policy might be shifting.
An alternative to this is to play in more high points games. The only reasons I can see Austria stabing Italy in 1901 is that they either very new or AFK-friends with Turkey.
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Ginge86
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#7 Post by Ginge86 » Tue May 31, 2022 8:20 pm

I have to disagree about Austria stabbing Italy. I have 2 Austrian solo's, both I stabbed Italy in Spring 1902.

cjva
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#8 Post by cjva » Tue May 31, 2022 8:43 pm

Ginge86 wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:20 pm
I have to disagree about Austria stabbing Italy. I have 2 Austrian solo's, both I stabbed Italy in Spring 1902.
Stabing 1902 is way different compared to stabing 1901 though.
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Gwyn
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#9 Post by Gwyn » Tue May 31, 2022 11:43 pm

cjva wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:43 pm
Ginge86 wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:20 pm
I have to disagree about Austria stabbing Italy. I have 2 Austrian solo's, both I stabbed Italy in Spring 1902.
Stabing 1902 is way different compared to stabing 1901 though.
This is probably just my autism speaking, but the constant spelling of "stabbing" with one 'b' is driving me crazy!
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cjva
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#10 Post by cjva » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:57 am

Gwyn wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 11:43 pm
cjva wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:43 pm
Ginge86 wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:20 pm
I have to disagree about Austria stabbing Italy. I have 2 Austrian solo's, both I stabbed Italy in Spring 1902.
Stabing 1902 is way different compared to stabing 1901 though.
This is probably just my autism speaking, but the constant spelling of "stabbing" with one 'b' is driving me crazy!
Might be so. English is not my first language.

Octavious
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#11 Post by Octavious » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:54 am

welshington wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 5:24 pm
I am new to online Diplomacy, but not new to Diplomacy in general. I am currently in an anonymous game where 2 players stabbed me, one by going all-in against me, which left their rear totally exposed. Another power may solo due to bad tactics by a third player and the one player going all-in against me. The 2 players that stabbed me want me to hold so they can go for a draw. I understand the points system here. If it was game with friends and family, I would fight it out and let the player solo.

What are the ethics on here, draw or revenge to let the one player solo?
You can do whatever you wish, of course. But be careful about giving yourself too restrictive a choice of options. If you have accepted that death is a likely prospect anyway, and your stabby friends have placed themselves in a position where you hold their fate in their hands, why not try demanding some pretty outrageous terms for your cooperation? If they refuse you have the satisfaction of watching them die, and if they agree you get to make the monkeys dance to whatever tune you wish.
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Ginge86
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#12 Post by Ginge86 » Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:44 am

cjva wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:43 pm
Ginge86 wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:20 pm
I have to disagree about Austria stabbing Italy. I have 2 Austrian solo's, both I stabbed Italy in Spring 1902.
Stabing 1902 is way different compared to stabing 1901 though.
Good point, I should have thought that through a little more before opening my mouth lol
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Sandor
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#13 Post by Sandor » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:44 pm

I recommend you always play for utility

Is there utility in taking crazy blind vengeance? Yes, but only in certain circumstances. The idea is to let everyone know that in the NEXT game they better think twice about messing with a crazy person

The problem here is that there are loads of players here playing loads of games, so the odds of anyone heeding your sacrificial lesson is low

And then never mind that in this game players are anonymous and they won’t remember your name even after names are revealed

So, in short: FIGHT UNTIL THE END playing for optimal moves! Stay good natured and friendly with everyone on all comms! Maybe you can win someone over!

I’ve salvaged a couple of games into being part of a draw with good diplomacy.
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Gwyn
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#14 Post by Gwyn » Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:56 pm

Sandor wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:44 pm
The problem here is that there are loads of players here playing loads of games, so the odds of anyone heeding your sacrificial lesson is low
While I agree with your general point, I would like to note that you've missed the impact of nebulous cooperation and sentiment.

If it's a common enough response to betrayal for the betrayed to go rabid dog on their betrayer, then that will enter into the consideration of betrayal, whether or not they know your personal likelihood.
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Crazy Anglican
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#15 Post by Crazy Anglican » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:35 pm

It's an old sentiment around here, but I usually go with it.

Play to win
If you cannot win; play for a draw
If you cannot draw; give the solo away (play for a survive)
If you cannot throw the game; play for revenge.
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Sevyas
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#16 Post by Sevyas » Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:56 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:35 pm
It's an old sentiment around here, but I usually go with it.

Play to win
If you cannot win; play for a draw
If you cannot draw; give the solo away (play for a survive)
If you cannot throw the game; play for revenge.
I agree with one exception: If, in a gunboat game, Italy attacks me as Austria from the start, I do not check other options - I play to ensure Italy drowns with me
...
well ... now that I think about it ... my proposed scenario pretty much excludes play to win, draw, or survive anyway ;)
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JECE
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Re: Revenge vs Draw

#17 Post by JECE » Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:18 am

welshington wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 5:24 pm
I am new to online Diplomacy, but not new to Diplomacy in general. I am currently in an anonymous game where 2 players stabbed me, one by going all-in against me, which left their rear totally exposed. Another power may solo due to bad tactics by a third player and the one player going all-in against me. The 2 players that stabbed me want me to hold so they can go for a draw. I understand the points system here. If it was game with friends and family, I would fight it out and let the player solo.

What are the ethics on here, draw or revenge to let the one player solo?
The advantage of on-line Diplomacy is that you can play the long game. I don't have a lot of experience playing in person, but I know that once you're knocked down, there almost certainly won't be enough time left to make a comeback.

In my games, I always go for the win, but I have also always fought tooth and nail to ensure that I never get eliminated. Some of the most intellectually challenging and rewarding games have been ones where I was in an extremely difficult situation and still managed to survive, such as this one.

Frankly, there is almost always a path to survival, such as by capitulating to your adversary (and offering your units as the tip of their spear) or by fighting your adversary so hard that you maintain a key position on the board (ideally on a stalemate line where you can't be safely eliminated). It sounds like, in your game, you had maneuvered yourself into the latter position. Once you've reached that point, why not reap the rewards of your hard work?
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