webdiplomacy.net

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:52 am

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:36 am

Real?

Since he's dead... However, I don't remember what our convention is for the cases where the fictional character dies in their universe.

It's only a flesh wound.

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:03 pm

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:36 am

Real?

Yes

@JECE: are you going to count it as a question?

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:03 pm

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:36 am

Real?

Yes

@JECE: are you going to count it as a question?

I don't think that it was a bad question.

Richard The Lion Heart

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:36 pm

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:03 pm

Yes

@JECE: are you going to count it as a question?

I don't think that it was a bad question.

But doesn't the answer 'yes' to the questions 'dead?' imply that the character was real and has died? In a sense, all fictional characters are not alive, strictly speaking. But are they dead? Generations of real characters from the future aren't alive yet. Does that mean that they are already dead, or dead 'still'? I remember we had this discussion aeons ago, and I'm just too lazy to try to dig it out.

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:16 pm

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:36 pm

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm

@JECE: are you going to count it as a question?

I don't think that it was a bad question.

But doesn't the answer 'yes' to the questions 'dead?' imply that the character was real and has died? In a sense, all fictional characters are not alive, strictly speaking. But are they dead? Generations of real characters from the future aren't alive yet. Does that mean that they are already dead, or dead 'still'? I remember we had this discussion aeons ago, and I'm just too lazy to try to dig it out.

As far as I know, this is how it works:

A character in a story is as long alive as the story doesn't inform us that they died. The only time where this isn't true is if it is a story of a character that has lived in our world and is dead here (like a story about Julius Cesar, Cleopatra, Abraham Lincoln, the rabbit I got for my 10th birthday from grandma).

But Schwanzus Longus is still alive as long as Monty Python don't make a sequel to the life of Brian where they state that he does die (although I think he is known under a different name in the english version).

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:20 pm

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:16 pm

JECE wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:36 pm

I don't think that it was a bad question.

But doesn't the answer 'yes' to the questions 'dead?' imply that the character was real and has died? In a sense, all fictional characters are not alive, strictly speaking. But are they dead? Generations of real characters from the future aren't alive yet. Does that mean that they are already dead, or dead 'still'? I remember we had this discussion aeons ago, and I'm just too lazy to try to dig it out.

As far as I know, this is how it works:

A character in a story is as long alive as the story doesn't inform us that they died. The only time where this isn't true is if it is a story of a character that has lived in our world and is dead here (like a story about Julius Cesar, Cleopatra, Abraham Lincoln, the rabbit I got for my 10th birthday from grandma).

But Schwanzus Longus is still alive as long as Monty Python don't make a sequel to the life of Brian where they state that he does die (although I think he is known under a different name in the english version).

Totally agree and yes, he is called "Biggus Dickus" in English...

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:26 pm

Totally agree and yes, he is called "Biggus Dickus" in English...

I knew that, I just wanted to see how many people I could make to google the name ...

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:28 pm

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:26 pm

Totally agree and yes, he is called "Biggus Dickus" in English...

I knew that, I just wanted to see how many people I could make to google the name ...

Ah, sorry. No need to google here....

And his wife?

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:26 pm

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:20 pm

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:16 pm

But doesn't the answer 'yes' to the questions 'dead?' imply that the character was real and has died? In a sense, all fictional characters are not alive, strictly speaking. But are they dead? Generations of real characters from the future aren't alive yet. Does that mean that they are already dead, or dead 'still'? I remember we had this discussion aeons ago, and I'm just too lazy to try to dig it out.

As far as I know, this is how it works:

A character in a story is as long alive as the story doesn't inform us that they died. The only time where this isn't true is if it is a story of a character that has lived in our world and is dead here (like a story about Julius Cesar, Cleopatra, Abraham Lincoln, the rabbit I got for my 10th birthday from grandma).

But Schwanzus Longus is still alive as long as Monty Python don't make a sequel to the life of Brian where they state that he does die (although I think he is known under a different name in the english version).

Totally agree and yes, he is called "Biggus Dickus" in English...

Let me bring up an example that may illustrate that this approach leads to paradoxes:
A fictional story features a historical figure (be it Napoleon) along with a fictional character. According to the story itself, both make it to the end. But Napoleon would be regarded as dead, and the fictional character alive?

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:38 pm

Ah, sorry. No need to google here....

Awww

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:10 pm

Hamish wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:26 pm

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:20 pm

As far as I know, this is how it works:

A character in a story is as long alive as the story doesn't inform us that they died. The only time where this isn't true is if it is a story of a character that has lived in our world and is dead here (like a story about Julius Cesar, Cleopatra, Abraham Lincoln, the rabbit I got for my 10th birthday from grandma).

But Schwanzus Longus is still alive as long as Monty Python don't make a sequel to the life of Brian where they state that he does die (although I think he is known under a different name in the english version).

Totally agree and yes, he is called "Biggus Dickus" in English...

Let me bring up an example that may illustrate that this approach leads to paradoxes:
A fictional story features a historical figure (be it Napoleon) along with a fictional character. According to the story itself, both make it to the end. But Napoleon would be regarded as dead, and the fictional character alive?

In this example, Napoleon is mostly known for his contribution in history, the fictional character only for the story. It is clear that everyone would scream foul if Napoleon would be declared as 'alive'; if we the fictional character were to be declared dead, we have no date of death, no cause of death, no maximum age, etc.

Let us see another example:
In the world of Moby Dick, Ishmael survives the whole story. The book was published in 1851 and the world is practically our world so no one would think that Ishmael would survive that long until today, but the crux of the story is still that Ishmael survives the story to tell the tale. Anyone who would declare Ishmael dead here would be plainly wrong.

I suggest for GM's, if they want, to say for these situations "there is no known time or cause of death but reasonable people presume them to be dead today", but this gives so much more information with one question. As a rule of thumb I'd say the answer should be clear enough so the intent behind is clear, but you wouldn't need to overexplain the Yes or No.

What about real persons that are only known for the story?
Good question, in that case I'd go for the real life information; depending on the story or common knowledge I might change that or give an answer that is like "Yes, but actually no."

That's also the fun part of this game, that it isn't 100% stiff and rigid like mathematics (well at least the elementary level of math), it can bend a little with the right amount of interpretation; more like 'not just, but fair'.

Or am I wrong with this perspective?

damo666 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:12 pm

Richard The Lion Heart

No

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:45 pm

[...] Anyone who would declare Ishmael dead here would be plainly wrong.

This is precisely the reason why I think that talking about Schoediger's state of a fictional character is irrelevant.

What about cartoon characters: is Donald Duck dead or alive? What about characters who die multiple times: The Groundhog Day, The Edge of Tomorrow, Alien Resurrection; or who die countless times and live an infinite number of lives: Lara Croft? What about characters who are brought back to life in a way that defies logic/physics/common sense: Little Red Riding Hood? Sure the story or game progresses with them 'alive', but we have witnessed their death nevertheless. This brings me to the ultimate question: is Jesus dead or alive? Regardless of your deep religious belief, or perhaps even through the prism thereof, is this biblical character dead or alive? You may say that's an exception. How about Maria? Two exceptions? And mind you, these are historical figures, but we are talking about the narration found in the Bible, which isn't exactly a biographical record. I am sure that we have no problems pronouncing historical Jesus dead, but what about the biblical character?

In my opinion, Donald Duck is practically immortal (maybe in the [very far] future there is an event where Ducktales 'kill off' some current characters including DD, but until then, no). So all characters that fit that bill would be described as alive, right?

Depending on the story, cartoon characters can die (and stay dead) so that should also be the answer.

In some cartoons characters may brought be back by shenanigans; like the time when [spoiler] spiderman was killed by doc oc who stole spidey's body and tried to be a better spiderman than spiderman but then spidey was brought back because doc oc wasn't as good of an spiderman so spidey lived again [/spoiler], so, in case of an ongoing story, its best to inform the current state, maybe with an caveat.

Also, in my opinion, Little Red Riding Hood and her grandma was never dead; the wolf eat them whole. At least in the most popular version of the story, in the very old french version there is no hunter to save both and 'eating' both is kinda a euphimism for another bad action ... but I digress.

For stories that are finished that change the status of 'alive' for the character more than alive -> dead, you should think before you choose them, how you would describe it. For the example of Jesus, you should be fully prepared to answer it correctly, absolute flawlessly. If you can't, then just choose another character/person/... that is easier to describe.

For reference, here is my shot at Judas viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4138&sid=a760c77fb4 ... 5394b02f01 - as far as I know, it was the fastest time someone called it by now, but you can see at post number 8 I already had to add an caveat since it was about a character in religion.

Also the discussion is kinda distracting from the game, I think? I mean it's good to talk about it but we shouldn't forget the game. So here are the points for game LXXI we currently know:

1. dead
2. male
3. European
4. couldn't have a driving license
5. often been portrayed with a sword
6. followed the catholic faith
7. was NO entertainer
8. real person

NOT Richard the Lionheart

Was his birth after the 1.1.1500?

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:37 pm

Was his birth after the 1.1.1500?

Yes

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:37 pm

[...] the discussion is kinda distracting from the game, I think? I mean it's good to talk about it but we shouldn't forget the game.

With this, I fully agree. We don't want to hijack this particular game to try to narrow our divide. I'd propose that from now on the first question asked be related to the character's status, real or fictional.

5. often been portrayed with a sword
9. born after 1.1.1500

Depicting him with a word may then carry a purely symbolic meaning given that battlefield relevance of melee weapons rapidly declined from the Renaissance onwards.

Native speaker of English?

Szpoti wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:20 am

Kakarroto wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:37 pm

[...] the discussion is kinda distracting from the game, I think? I mean it's good to talk about it but we shouldn't forget the game.

With this, I fully agree. We don't want to hijack this particular game to try to narrow our divide. I'd propose that from now on the first question asked be related to the character's status, real or fictional.

What? Like "real, dead, male"? What a waste.

Did he die of natural causes?