MAFIA 75: TROUBLE AT THE PRECINCT [HIDDEN]

[President Eden]

Why do you think he’s forcing this narrative, as you say? Your tone indicates to me that you view him as a misguided town being obstinate as opposed to scum malice: is this a fair assumption and if so, is there a reason for the distinction?

worcej also seems to seems diametrically opposed to you largely starting from your stated position on me (or rather byz), which you have conceded wavering slightly on. Given your previous hard stance, do you think it is a natural position worcej staked out against you here?

It is a fair conclusion, I think he is misguided town. I townread him early because he was more invested in the thread than I’m used to seeing from him as mafia. I find he tends to let out-of-game stuff get in the way a lot more as mafia and finds a way to make time when he’s town. I’m less enamored with the actual content of that investment in the thread, but his posting volume is a lot higher than I think it ever would be if he’s mafia.

I think the position is natural, in that I don’t think it’s coming from an agenda (unless you consider paranoia an agenda). It’s quite clearly (in my eyes anyway) highly vested thinking, clearly just ignoring contradicting evidence and forcing the narrative on to me, but I don’t feel like I’m arguing with somebody who’s trying to rile me up or waste my time, I feel like I’m arguing with somebody who’s being stubborn. I think he just really wants it to be right and doesn’t want to be told he’s wrong. I don’t know if I could point to specific things he’s said that would prove my point, and certainly I could be wrong about it, but that’s my impression.

[snowy801]

One day I'll figure out why I'm being called scum and have context for this discussion

Perhaps today depending on how much of an insomniac I want to be

[worcej]

I’ve typed and deleted like [s]three[/s] four, now, as of finally submitting this one, drafts to worcej that all eventually ended up being ruder than I wanted, so suffice to say that:

1. I pretty clearly had darg in my POE, and I don’t even recall anybody giving him a clear town read—not to say it didn’t happen but that he certainly wasn’t out of the POE enough to warrant an n1 kill for that reason alone;

2. the farmer = florist thing might be legit, fair enough on that. I don’t really see how that reflects on me, but if you wanted to force this narrative as you very plainly want to force it, I guess that’s something I might have picked up on. I didn’t, but the nature of not noticing something is that I don’t really have anything to point to that shows I didn’t, so I can’t really disprove it.

I have a lot more I’d like to say, but I feel like so much of what I’ve already said is falling on deaf ears that there’s no point.

In regards to #1 - That's fine, he was in POE but I am just trying to establish that him dying isn't a big shock or surprise to me.

The #2 - it wasn't something I caught during D1, so don't take it like that. I am point out on reflection and examination that that could've been the catch that someone made and thus justified the kill. It's a rather weird thing for him to say.

Not sure why you think it's falling on deaf ears or anything. You haven't said anything compelling to begin with and are just being combative with a heavy dose of OMGUS if we're being honest.

[snowy801]

worcej why are you so convinced Eden's vote on bona is disingenuine?

[worcej]

Why do you think he’s forcing this narrative, as you say? Your tone indicates to me that you view him as a misguided town being obstinate as opposed to scum malice: is this a fair assumption and if so, is there a reason for the distinction?

worcej also seems to seems diametrically opposed to you largely starting from your stated position on me (or rather byz), which you have conceded wavering slightly on. Given your previous hard stance, do you think it is a natural position worcej staked out against you here?

It is a fair conclusion, I think he is misguided town. I townread him early because he was more invested in the thread than I’m used to seeing from him as mafia. I find he tends to let out-of-game stuff get in the way a lot more as mafia and finds a way to make time when he’s town. I’m less enamored with the actual content of that investment in the thread, but his posting volume is a lot higher than I think it ever would be if he’s mafia.

I think the position is natural, in that I don’t think it’s coming from an agenda (unless you consider paranoia an agenda). It’s quite clearly (in my eyes anyway) highly vested thinking, clearly just ignoring contradicting evidence and forcing the narrative on to me, but I don’t feel like I’m arguing with somebody who’s trying to rile me up or waste my time, I feel like I’m arguing with somebody who’s being stubborn. I think he just really wants it to be right and doesn’t want to be told he’s wrong. I don’t know if I could point to specific things he’s said that would prove my point, and certainly I could be wrong about it, but that’s my impression.

Seriously Eden, you're painting me more out of any actual context here than you state I have and it's embarrassing to witness this level of OMGUS from you.

You're first starting point was to say "I'm not paying attention" because you're voting for Bona and you believe I didn't notice that and am fabricating my opinion on it, which is more of a character attack on me than actual substantive commentary.

Then we have your Bona vote that is still lacking an explanation under the guise that Bona could be 'savvy' to dissuade your position. I've already addressed that I think that's BS coming from you, who is consistently combative with your reads and you do not shy from engagement when you're town.

You're not being towny Eden, it's pretty obvious to me.

[worcej]

worcej why are you so convinced Eden's vote on bona is disingenuine?

Because he has yet to explain his transition from this:

This was as of last night, it probably needs updating but I gotta go. I will try to remember why people are where they are if you ask me

Solid Town: I’m realistically never voting these people.

• Bona, Rumi

Satisfactory Town: They’re not yet in the “never voting” category, but looking good so far to me.

To now voting him and apparently having a case but he cannot share the case because Bona might outwit him with his ~savvy~ responses.

[President Eden]

worcej why are you so convinced Eden’s vote on bona is disingenuine?

Because he has yet to explain his transition from this:

This was as of last night, it probably needs updating but I gotta go. I will try to remember why people are where they are if you ask me

Solid Town: I’m realistically never voting these people.

• Bona, Rumi

Satisfactory Town: They’re not yet in the “never voting” category, but looking good so far to me.

To now voting him and apparently having a case but he cannot share the case because Bona might outwit him with his ~savvy~ responses.

Because I spilled hundreds of words about it this afternoon which you still haven’t read.

[worcej]

Like, am I the crazy one here to think Eden's resistance to provide context for his anime betrayal is bullshit? We're talking about the guy who constantly gets into wars with people when he's town. There have been far to many Eden vs [insert player] squabbles that dominate the thread when he's town.

[worcej]

worcej why are you so convinced Eden’s vote on bona is disingenuine?

Because he has yet to explain his transition from this:

This was as of last night, it probably needs updating but I gotta go. I will try to remember why people are where they are if you ask me

Solid Town: I’m realistically never voting these people.

• Bona, Rumi

Satisfactory Town: They’re not yet in the “never voting” category, but looking good so far to me.

To now voting him and apparently having a case but he cannot share the case because Bona might outwit him with his ~savvy~ responses.

Because I spilled hundreds of words about it this afternoon which you still haven’t read.

This afternoon, starting from 12:00 PM PST, which is 3:00 left of N1, you have only said the following:

I mean I’m batting a thousand so far…

But yea I do kinda have to admit that he hasn’t had the zeal this night phase that I’m used to. And I’m pretty sure I caught him booting up HOI4 while I was home for lunch, so it’s not school yet.

There hasn't been another word regarding anything negative you feel about him.

[worcej]

##end

99.12042% sure I am not moving off Eden now.

[President Eden]

I kind of did already, but I don’t really see the need to accede to your demands when they’re built on a faulty premise. Is your friend a giant jerk or not? If he is, that’s way more useful for helping me escape my tunnel than anything else you could do. If he’s not, how is it a tunnel to be calling out mafia for behaving as mafia do?

In games he’s a jerk. That’s how he plays.

Outside of games he’s not.

Alright, noted.

More later, maybe even including an exercise

After this I fight with Neon because I think she’s being disingenuous to Rumi. That all got hashed out and I’m not here to dredge that back up, except to give the context on why I then said this:

I need to update my list, but I’m definitely not getting out of here before EOD and I haven’t gotten shit done today. Hopefully I’m wrong enough that I’m not worth killing~

Bo up, have to rethink Byz/Sabi/Neon because I feel I have misjudged how I would expect them to act and that it is biasing my reads. Chaqa DOWN

and then this:

In full disclosure I’m probably still going to start by trying to hang snowy if I’m alive tomorrow, but I’m way less confident than before because I’m seeing ghug’s point about Byz not needing to be mafia. I think that slot has a decent chance of flipping mafia and would tell us a fair bit about D1, plus I would hate for snowy to get a total pass to coast.

Relatedly I am having a lot of difficulty processing Sabi and Neon… without dredging up previous fights, let’s simply say that my expectations for how townies should react to things do not seem calibrated to how they would react to things, and that my instinct screaming at me to hang them might be misplaced, and I haven’t worked out how to navigate that yet.

Darg has felt kind of “above the fray” to me, not in a sanctimonious way or anything, but that he’s managed not to comment in depth on a lot of the key events in the game and commit to positions. Not necessarily mafia indicative, but certainly where I might expect him to be as mafia.

Bo looks good. Rivera has passed all the questions thrown at him, and has had a couple of decent insights, so he’s probably good too. Kind of leery at Chaqa’s lower investment level but nothing serious, just wary. ghug seems fine.

which has BONUS POINTS: I CLEARLY INDICATE I’M THINKING ABOUT DARG BEING MAFIA HERE! WHICH IS WHY I’M SURPRISED HE’S SHOT!!

followed by:

This was as of last night, it probably needs updating but I gotta go. I will try to remember why people are where they are if you ask me

Solid Town: I’m realistically never voting these people.

• Bona, Rumi

Satisfactory Town: They’re not yet in the “never voting” category, but looking good so far to me.

• celaph, Chaqa, ghug, Jamie, worcej

Passing Town: They’re ahead of the suspects, and I have reason to townread them, but I’m still kinda wary because I can see reasons to scumread them too.

• Sabi, Neon, rivera, Vecna

Suspicious: I don’t feel I’ve got any clear reason to townread these guys. Given that I’ve got at least something for a lot of other people, that speaks volumes.

• bo, darg, pyxxy

Target Locked: They have to go… okay fine it’s one guy, whatever.

• snowy801

I swear all you ever do is list Bona in a ‘will not vote’ group

I mean I’m batting a thousand so far…

But yea I do kinda have to admit that he hasn’t had the zeal this night phase that I’m used to. And I’m pretty sure I caught him booting up HOI4 while I was home for lunch, so it’s not school yet.

me LITERALLY TELLING WORCEJ A REASON WHY IT’S FAIR TO BE SUSPICIOUS OF BONA

What in the fuck else do you want from me? You clearly didn’t read a fucking thing I posted on N1 so why are you stepping up to me now like you did?

[snowy801]

to be fair is it a surprise if someone you scum read flips town?

[President Eden]

to be fair is it a surprise if someone you scum read flips town?

Did you mean to ask something else? Because yes obviously it is lol.

[snowy801]

But I will agree with worcej if that's all you said on the matter that you provide no context for your bona flip, if it is as genuine as you state here.

An off hand comment about out of game availability is not really a reason to sus someone

[snowy801]

to be fair is it a surprise if someone you scum read flips town?

Did you mean to ask something else? Because yes obviously it is lol.

mmm

[ghug]

to be fair is it a surprise if someone you scum read flips town?

Did you mean to ask something else? Because yes obviously it is lol.

I think the emphasis was on "you".

[worcej]

In games he’s a jerk. That’s how he plays.

Outside of games he’s not.

Alright, noted.

More later, maybe even including an exercise

After this I fight with Neon because I think she’s being disingenuous to Rumi. That all got hashed out and I’m not here to dredge that back up, except to give the context on why I then said this:

I need to update my list, but I’m definitely not getting out of here before EOD and I haven’t gotten shit done today. Hopefully I’m wrong enough that I’m not worth killing~

Bo up, have to rethink Byz/Sabi/Neon because I feel I have misjudged how I would expect them to act and that it is biasing my reads. Chaqa DOWN

and then this:

In full disclosure I’m probably still going to start by trying to hang snowy if I’m alive tomorrow, but I’m way less confident than before because I’m seeing ghug’s point about Byz not needing to be mafia. I think that slot has a decent chance of flipping mafia and would tell us a fair bit about D1, plus I would hate for snowy to get a total pass to coast.

Relatedly I am having a lot of difficulty processing Sabi and Neon… without dredging up previous fights, let’s simply say that my expectations for how townies should react to things do not seem calibrated to how they would react to things, and that my instinct screaming at me to hang them might be misplaced, and I haven’t worked out how to navigate that yet.

Darg has felt kind of “above the fray” to me, not in a sanctimonious way or anything, but that he’s managed not to comment in depth on a lot of the key events in the game and commit to positions. Not necessarily mafia indicative, but certainly where I might expect him to be as mafia.

Bo looks good. Rivera has passed all the questions thrown at him, and has had a couple of decent insights, so he’s probably good too. Kind of leery at Chaqa’s lower investment level but nothing serious, just wary. ghug seems fine.

which has BONUS POINTS: I CLEARLY INDICATE I’M THINKING ABOUT DARG BEING MAFIA HERE! WHICH IS WHY I’M SURPRISED HE’S SHOT!!

followed by:

I swear all you ever do is list Bona in a ‘will not vote’ group

I mean I’m batting a thousand so far…

But yea I do kinda have to admit that he hasn’t had the zeal this night phase that I’m used to. And I’m pretty sure I caught him booting up HOI4 while I was home for lunch, so it’s not school yet.

me LITERALLY TELLING WORCEJ A REASON WHY IT’S FAIR TO BE SUSPICIOUS OF BONA

What in the fuck else do you want from me? You clearly didn’t read a fucking thing I posted on N1 so why are you stepping up to me now like you did?

So the crux of why I'm misguided on my opinion on you is because you were starting to think darg was maybe mafia? And because you were thinking he was maybe mafia made his death shocking?

And I should believe your vote on Bona was because he decided to play HOI4 instead of possibly post here during the night phase?

Sorry Eden, I may usually be misguided, but the framework you're building right now for why I am wrong is fucking awful.

What I want from you is less terrible OMGUS

[President Eden]

What I want from you is less terrible OMGUS

Do you even know what OMGUS is? I’ve said I don’t know how many times that I think you’re misguided TOWN.

[President Eden]

So the crux of why I’m misguided on my opinion on you is because you were starting to think darg was maybe mafia? And because you were thinking he was maybe mafia made his death shocking?

And I should believe your vote on Bona was because he decided to play HOI4 instead of possibly post here during the night phase?

Guess you’re just gonna power right past the fact that you said I was tunneled on Byz when I just gave you ample evidence that I wasn’t. That’s actually the crux of the issue more than anything. The whole sidebar about Bona tonight started because I responded to your comment about me being tunneled by asking you who my vote was on.

[worcej]

But I will agree with worcej if that's all you said on the matter that you provide no context for your bona flip, if it is as genuine as you state here.

An off hand comment about out of game availability is not really a reason to sus someone

What makes it more bad is he's using the fact that I didn't conclude that this is the complete basis for susing Bona and therefor I am not paying attention.

Speaking of this more: when you look at it honestly, Eden doing this is clearly angle shooting with outside of game information only privy to Eden and Chaqa.