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As a general point @Chaqa, I'm grateful to you for subbing in, thank you. And you only lost on a coin toss at the end really.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:05 am

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:06 am

Wait so did DL hold his kill?

I thought we had decided mafia couldn’t do that a few games back

Nothing in the rules says this.

Since not everyone is on Discord, I'll repeat here the comments I've made there.

My own view is that there's no justification for preventing one faction from "no killing" unless you apply that ruling to all factions. So I think if you want to forbid the Mafia from holding their kill, you also need to make the Daykill compulsive - that is, "no kill" is not allowed as a voting choice during the day, and if the day happens to end in a tie, the GM will randomly flip one of the tied candidates.

They do this on some sites, sometimes, especially MafiaScum where I've seen this in several games. I'd support it here - but only on an equitable basis as noted above.

As I said on discord I'd prefer both factions to be able to no kill. In fact I go further and would say at no stage should either side be forced to kill. Impasse = draw.

Now , this brings up an interesting point - is playing for a draw thus avoiding loss contrary to wincon? Say the rule is 4 successive no kills to draw and we stand at 3 successive no kills, in order for the next party to NK they would need to demonstrate that a kill would make them more likely to lose and thus contrary to their wincon. Fairly easy for town, not so obvious for mafia.

This is discussed, inconclusively, here:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Revisited

Basically for mafia to NK they need to demonstrate that this inaction is better for their wincon than a kill would be. If this is not demonstrable they must NK.

That fact that it appears that no-killing was an effective strategy this game demonstrated that at times both factions can use nk as an aid to wincon. Let it stand. At worst it wastes some time. At best, llama gets to win.

damo666 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:07 pm

Basically for mafia to NK they need to demonstrate that this inaction is better for their wincon than a kill would be. If this is not demonstrable they must NK.

That's a very subjective judgement you're asking the GM to make.

I'm not sure it's necessary to have a "rule" which in practice compels the GM to have an in-depth dialogue with the Mafia about their strategy, and then make a judgement call on whether it is a sound strategy. That could, in my view, have unintended consequences which would be bad for the integrity of the game.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 am

As a general point @Chaqa, I'm grateful to you for subbing in, thank you. And you only lost on a coin toss at the end really.

Oh yeah I mean, if I had realized mafia could hold the kill, I *may* have approached the save differently last night (as I assumed DL would be killed since I couldn't save him again), but I think it still would have come to that coin toss regardless.

There was a discussion about this starting here 2 years ago:
viewtopic.php?p=155370#p155370

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:42 pm

My general understanding of it was mafia can hold their kill until MYLO, then for game progression reasons it is on them to make the kill.

Realistically, we probably don't need to worry about this as a scenario if it's only happened once in 6 years, and just leave it up to the GMs to decide if their setup warrants clarification.

^ this post in particular is peak comedy in retrospect.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:56 pm

damo666 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:07 pm

Basically for mafia to NK they need to demonstrate that this inaction is better for their wincon than a kill would be. If this is not demonstrable they must NK.

That's a very subjective judgement you're asking the GM to make.

I'm not sure it's necessary to have a "rule" which in practice compels the GM to have an in-depth dialogue with the Mafia about their strategy, and then make a judgement call on whether it is a sound strategy. That could, in my view, have unintended consequences which would be bad for the integrity of the game.

I mean at the worst end of the scale, what if a Mafia team is torn on whether or not it's a good idea to withhold the kill, and they @@CALL GM in Discord and ask the GM to rule whether they're allowed to do it or not. At that point they're effectively asking the GM to coach them on whether their strategy is good or bad. That's not a good thing.

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 am

As a general point @Chaqa, I'm grateful to you for subbing in, thank you. And you only lost on a coin toss at the end really.

Oh yeah I mean, if I had realized mafia could hold the kill, I *may* have approached the save differently last night (as I assumed DL would be killed since I couldn't save him again), but I think it still would have come to that coin toss regardless.

Didn't you notice Kak asking a GM question about what would happen if the Mafia withheld their kill repeatedly?

When I answered to say, specifically, that if there were no-kills in four successive day and night phases, the game would end in a draw, how did you not understand this to mean that it was possible the Mafia might no-kill?

Or did you just not see these posts?

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:32 pm

GM NOTE

If four successive phases have a "No Kill" outcome, the game will end in a draw.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:40 pm

GM NOTE:

To clarify the last part of Kak's question, voting No-Kill is allowed, if you want to. I have explained what will happen if there are successive no-kills (in successive night and day phases, in any sequence).

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:21 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 am

As a general point @Chaqa, I'm grateful to you for subbing in, thank you. And you only lost on a coin toss at the end really.

Oh yeah I mean, if I had realized mafia could hold the kill, I *may* have approached the save differently last night (as I assumed DL would be killed since I couldn't save him again), but I think it still would have come to that coin toss regardless.

Didn't you notice Kak asking a GM question about what would happen if the Mafia withheld their kill repeatedly?

When I answered to say, specifically, that if there were no-kills in four successive day and night phases, the game would end in a draw, how did you not understand this to mean that it was possible the Mafia might no-kill?

Or did you just not see these posts?

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:32 pm

GM NOTE

If four successive phases have a "No Kill" outcome, the game will end in a draw.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:40 pm

GM NOTE:

To clarify the last part of Kak's question, voting No-Kill is allowed, if you want to. I have explained what will happen if there are successive no-kills (in successive night and day phases, in any sequence).

Yeah, I saw those but assumed you were implying I had to make two doc saves to cause a tie lol

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:21 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:10 pm

Oh yeah I mean, if I had realized mafia could hold the kill, I *may* have approached the save differently last night (as I assumed DL would be killed since I couldn't save him again), but I think it still would have come to that coin toss regardless.

Didn't you notice Kak asking a GM question about what would happen if the Mafia withheld their kill repeatedly?

When I answered to say, specifically, that if there were no-kills in four successive day and night phases, the game would end in a draw, how did you not understand this to mean that it was possible the Mafia might no-kill?

Or did you just not see these posts?

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:32 pm

GM NOTE

If four successive phases have a "No Kill" outcome, the game will end in a draw.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:40 pm

GM NOTE:

To clarify the last part of Kak's question, voting No-Kill is allowed, if you want to. I have explained what will happen if there are successive no-kills (in successive night and day phases, in any sequence).

Yeah, I saw those but assumed you were implying I had to make two doc saves to cause a tie lol

Oh.

I think I made it very clear.

You should read my posts again.

How the fuck could a docsave force a draw?

Don't be silly Chaqa.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:21 pm

How the fuck could a docsave force a draw?

Don't be silly Chaqa.

Read your posts again, you never mention a no kill night or mafia action, only votes. You said two days/nights of no kills would mean a draw (hence two doc saved with two no kills votes)

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:32 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:21 pm

How the fuck could a docsave force a draw?

Don't be silly Chaqa.

Read your posts again, you never mention a no kill night or mafia action, only votes. You said two days/nights of no kills would mean a draw (hence two doc saved with two no kills votes)

A docsave isn't a "no kill". It's a docsave.

How on earth would a game be forced to draw because the Doctor saved somebody. Are you on crack?

“No kill” result is the part that implies after four no deaths phases happen

I thought it was an odd ruling but didn’t ask because I thought we were about to yeet Kak to victory lol

Hereon I suggest with each game set up it is explicitly stated whether mafia can no kill and in which circumstances if any either team is forced to kill and in which circumstances a draw may be the result.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:41 pm

Are you on crack?

Apparently drunk me thought this line was funny but clearly it's in poor taste - I apologise, Chaqa.

Chaqa wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 pm

“No kill” result is the part that implies after four no deaths phases happen

I thought it was an odd ruling but didn’t ask because I thought we were about to yeet Kak to victory lol

It would certainly be odd for the Doctor to be able to force a draw by saving people on successive nights, yes.