M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[Bonatogether]

I see a lot of people have kgray in towncore and I'm not feeling it. She just hasn't really clicked with me as town yet. Not feeling super positive on her. Not exactly negative, but I'm unwilling to write her off yet, especially for someone noted as being pretty good as scum.

bob is factually correct again

[kgray]

That's dumb, I'm super towny. Flum has never incorrectly townread me and I don't do this much as scum.

[kgray]

My thoughts on Rivera:

4 out of his first 6 posts have been him giving some sort of commentary about his reads. Then bozo makes his list of people who haven't done towny things and includes Rivera on it. I thought this was odd and questioned it.

Instead of reacting to his inclusion on the list or me questioning it, Rivera critiques Chaqa's scumread of bozo. I misremembered this - I thought Rivera defended bozo's list. He did later say bozo got town points for it.

This still feels weird to me, like bozo is maybe including his teammate on his list and his teammate isn't reacting to it, but tbh I'm pretty lukewarm on this now. Plus, when I later questioned why Rivera didn't want to kill bozo, his answer seemed solid. I'm suspicious of bozo for Flum-related reasons but I don't think this connection with Rivera is as strong as I thought.

The Flum thing bothers me most about Rivera though:

Jamie, since you wanted to know about my opinions of your arguments last time, I think your Fox case was much stronger than this Flum one.

Why exactly?

Flum back pedalling on his claim is weird and scummy. If he said, "yeah, I am lazy didn´t check and didn´t remember saying I was town last game", I think it would be NAI. But trying to change the meaning of that post is weird and scummy. And the case on Fox isn´t that solid, is a good one for D1 but it isn´t like a confirmed scum.

Rivera says twice Flum is being weird and scummy, but still doesn't vote for him (at this time, he's had his vote on no-kill because he was worried about not being around and getting modkilled). And he later says to Jamie that he is considering voting Flum, but doesn't.

A few hours later he says Flum's wagon is weird, as if he doesn't understand why they're voting for Flum:

I also hate I am at no-kill but I am having a hard time finding who to vote. Tfb isn't that bad of a choice but I don't want a runaway wagon. I could possibly vote for Celaph but you will yell at me.
I would vote for Fox but he subbed.
Flum wagon is weird and Bob is sleeping.

Anyone want to ##vote Ghug ? I got a feeling.

Jamie/Boatman made it very clear why they were voting him. I would get people questioning damo's vote if they don't know damo, but Rivera does know damo. And Rivera had also agreed with Flum being scummy so I see no reason why he would question that wagon. Flum was the only** person he directly said was scummy! And he shades the wagon instead of joining it.

Rivera's response is "why would I do this as scum" and yeah, I get that some because Flum flipped town. If Flum were scum then this might be a slam-dunk case. But why would Rivera do this as town? I think Flum was right, Rivera wanted to shade the push on what he knew would be a town flip. Obviously I don't know that boatman and Jamie and damo are town, but if they are then why shouldn't Rivera start planting the seeds for a push based on blaming townies for a miskill? I kind of got a similar vibe from him asking me why I hadn't voted Flum.

And if Rivera is scum then that doesn't look good for HR trying to get me to vote Flum based off my Rivera suspicions. But I still vibed with HR at EOD yesterday.

**Rivera said he thinks Fox was scummy but hedges by saying he always finds Fox scummy. And when I said I like Jamie's Fox case better than his Flum one, Rivera disagreed and defended Fox by saying the case isn't even that solid anyway (see the first quote above). But then later he says he would have voted Fox except that he subbed out, even though he thought Flum was scummier than Fox. I could totally see Rivera/Fox as teammates.

[DemonRHK]

- The actually interesting switch is DemonRHK, who voted damo -> celaph -> flum -> theflyingboat in the final hour. The whole EOD is kind of weird, I don't get the logic behind

I townread more people on the donny wagon, but the flum convo will not go away till one of flum or jamie is dead. Ghug is a meh 3rd wagon.

Anyone0 feeling a flash ##vote damo wagon?

It also seems inconsistent with

The flum wagon has ben rigid which cements my townreads on most of them, regardless of damo being on it.

##Vote flum

(if you already kinda townread the whole flum wagon, why did you like the donny wagon more? why did you try to flash damo and celaph?)

and the final TFB vote (they never really talk about bob at all?)

At the time I was townreading the whole donny wagon (with a kgray, Durga, ghug core on it) Vs. the flum wagon, which I had a red flag in damo.

I'd been on celaph since the odd attempt to force their way into my #BadMath, which was later handwaced away as a lackluster attempt to ask for a read on them, which I found a little weak. Damo was my main takeaway from my #BadMath, in that not only was damo lurking, but had less conent per post than anyone else in the game.

I wanted to build a new counterwagon to see if we could get some movement going at EoD. Which brings me to an interesting point: You shaded me off of the damo AND the celaph wagons:

I townread more people on the donny wagon, but the flum convo will not go away till one of flum or jamie is dead. Ghug is a meh 3rd wagon.

Anyone0 feeling a flash ##vote damo wagon?

I don't want to flash someone who said he won't be here for EOD but hmu tomorrow

I don't want to flash someone who said he won't be here for EOD but hmu tomorrow

This is a fair point, I forgot he said he would be out, ##vote celaph to ruturn to where I was.

I don't think celaph is going to happen

As I stated, the return to celaph was to accurately represent my previous position. I consolidated onto flum, as the lack of movement for any of the core put the possibility of an unfocused scum team trying multiple wagons to draw off of flum, and, admittedly, becuase I didn't fucking want Jamie clogging up D2 if flum got off.

After flum walled at EoD it was obvious that was a town post. I panic voted away, and the last vote I had seen was for TFB.

[ghug]

switching your vote to Flum has thrown me for a loop lmao

Why do you think I did it?

at first i was like "whoa did they change to confirm the vote stays on Flum after seeing me and Bona change off it? potentially to protect boat"

and i'm a bit confused that your assertion is you did it as a joke?

like i am almost willing to accept it but if you do not do that the vote is 7-6. that's too close to joke with. but also kgray and demon vote after you. it's just all confusing to me.

I thought it was very unlikely that the vote would swing given the time left and the margin, and I was ready to change back if it did. You can see that my vote was a response to him saying I could have two days of townread.

[ghug]

Thank you for recapping your case for flum being scum. I will now switch my vote. Flum's death is somewhat on himself, but town on this site really need to start thinking about D1 flum wagons before blindly jumping on them. This happens far too often to blame it all on flum at this point.

Yes Jamie, I hold you responsible over flum. Deal with it.

I was not recapping the case, I was recapping the sequence of events, just for the record.

Your opinion of the Flum wagon (and indeed, everyone's opinion of it) is a useful conversation topic, however.

Here are the eight people that ended up on Flum:

Jamiet99uk
TheFlyingBoat
damo666
Chaqa
Hellenic Riot
rdrivera2005
bozotheclown
ghug

I think there are likely to be three categories of person on that list:

1. People who are town and who genuinely agreed with my case on Flum.

2. People who, in your words "blindly jumped on", implying that they are foolish town rather than scheming scumbos.

3. People who are scum, knew that I was wrong, and who felt it convenient to use my push on Flum to ensure a D1 miskill that could then be blamed on me.


How would you categorise each of the people on the Flum wagon, Bob?

Well that's a very broad question that requires too much research to be worth my time for a very questionably effective categorisation. But based off vibes:
Jamie - 1
TFB - 1
Damo - 3
Chaqa - 2 or 3, he should know better
HR - 1
Rdr - 1
Ghug - 1 or 3, he should also know better
Bozo - 1

Now I should make it clear that I don't like the way this is phrased. I think most of the town on the wagon probably genuinely thought he was scum, but also genuinely suck at reading flum's antics, making them also " foolish". I'm most suspicious (other than you) of people who I would expect might've learned by now.

It's fascinating to me that anyone could think I scumread Flum. 3, fine, but how do you possibly get 1?

[ghug]

@ghug do you still scumread Jamie?

Yeah

[kgray]

@ghug do you still scumread Jamie?

Yeah

Why?

[ghug]

@ghug do you still scumread Jamie?

Yeah

Why?

Cause catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie fakes scumhunting.

Do you still townread him?

[bozotheclown]

My thoughts on Rivera:

4 out of his first 6 posts have been him giving some sort of commentary about his reads. Then bozo makes his list of people who haven't done towny things and includes Rivera on it. I thought this was odd and questioned it.

Instead of reacting to his inclusion on the list or me questioning it, Rivera critiques Chaqa's scumread of bozo. I misremembered this - I thought Rivera defended bozo's list. He did later say bozo got town points for it.

This still feels weird to me, like bozo is maybe including his teammate on his list and his teammate isn't reacting to it, but tbh I'm pretty lukewarm on this now. Plus, when I later questioned why Rivera didn't want to kill bozo, his answer seemed solid. I'm suspicious of bozo for Flum-related reasons but I don't think this connection with Rivera is as strong as I thought.

The Flum thing bothers me most about Rivera though:

Jamie, since you wanted to know about my opinions of your arguments last time, I think your Fox case was much stronger than this Flum one.

Why exactly?

Flum back pedalling on his claim is weird and scummy. If he said, "yeah, I am lazy didn´t check and didn´t remember saying I was town last game", I think it would be NAI. But trying to change the meaning of that post is weird and scummy. And the case on Fox isn´t that solid, is a good one for D1 but it isn´t like a confirmed scum.

Rivera says twice Flum is being weird and scummy, but still doesn't vote for him (at this time, he's had his vote on no-kill because he was worried about not being around and getting modkilled). And he later says to Jamie that he is considering voting Flum, but doesn't.

A few hours later he says Flum's wagon is weird, as if he doesn't understand why they're voting for Flum:

I also hate I am at no-kill but I am having a hard time finding who to vote. Tfb isn't that bad of a choice but I don't want a runaway wagon. I could possibly vote for Celaph but you will yell at me.
I would vote for Fox but he subbed.
Flum wagon is weird and Bob is sleeping.

Anyone want to ##vote Ghug ? I got a feeling.

Jamie/Boatman made it very clear why they were voting him. I would get people questioning damo's vote if they don't know damo, but Rivera does know damo. And Rivera had also agreed with Flum being scummy so I see no reason why he would question that wagon. Flum was the only** person he directly said was scummy! And he shades the wagon instead of joining it.

Rivera's response is "why would I do this as scum" and yeah, I get that some because Flum flipped town. If Flum were scum then this might be a slam-dunk case. But why would Rivera do this as town? I think Flum was right, Rivera wanted to shade the push on what he knew would be a town flip. Obviously I don't know that boatman and Jamie and damo are town, but if they are then why shouldn't Rivera start planting the seeds for a push based on blaming townies for a miskill? I kind of got a similar vibe from him asking me why I hadn't voted Flum.

And if Rivera is scum then that doesn't look good for HR trying to get me to vote Flum based off my Rivera suspicions. But I still vibed with HR at EOD yesterday.

**Rivera said he thinks Fox was scummy but hedges by saying he always finds Fox scummy. And when I said I like Jamie's Fox case better than his Flum one, Rivera disagreed and defended Fox by saying the case isn't even that solid anyway (see the first quote above). But then later he says he would have voted Fox except that he subbed out, even though he thought Flum was scummier than Fox. I could totally see Rivera/Fox as teammates.

rdrivera said he was town, though.

[kgray]

Yeah

Why?

Cause catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie fakes scumhunting.

Do you still townread him?

Hmm okay. I thought you said scum!Jamie does that to his teammates.

Yeah I think so. Catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie scumhunts. But he's tricky because I always think he's more Jamie-y than towny or scummy so I'm not that sure about him.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Blamp's was weirder as he seems to genuinely like both wagons when surely there odds of that fight being SvS are rock bottom and how unlike Bona he strongly town read me during the day. The justification that he gave of me trying to switch my vote onto rdr being sus clearly didn't hold up given the primary focus of about seven hours of my real world time was on getting Flum voted off and I never gave any indication I'd consider switching my vote onto rdr. He then doubles down and claims even the mere proffering of a scum read I had on rdr was scummy which either seems really questionable new town play or a post hoc rationalization by a scum member looking to create some plausible deniability and avoid responsibility.

for me the bob and rdr wagons just gave me an awful gut feeling. i felt like no matter what the options would likely be town v town, and that at least if i was the one trying to force a direction that i could know it wasn't coming from a place of evil. and when you vocalize suspicion of rdr, who i have a slight townread on, while also being a main proponent on flum's wagon, who i couldn't make sense of either way but my gut was saying he was innocent [but expendable at that point], it raises suspicion. In the case that they're both innocent (which, hey, one is!), your optimal play as mafia is to ensure the counterwagon is also a townie. That's what it felt like. trying to push for both wagons of the day just feels very manipulative to me, especially when you're steadfast on one. i get that maybe that's wrong and you should be allowed to vocalize your opinions and blah blah blah, but in a time when i'm trying to actively analyze why votes are progressing as it happens, it stood out. the other thing that put me onto you was that you said you didn't like the donny wagon out of the blue, and then i asked you twice to elaborate on it and you ignored me.

Ah I must have missed your post to elaborate in the chaos of the EOD. You can ask kgray though, she has had to deal with me missing shit she has asked for

As for why I thought it was weird, it was the rate it materialized combined with the relative lack of justification over the day. Normally I feel like people are more heavily discussed before they become the biggest wagon in the game in the manner that they did. That being said I don't view all voters on it as being suspect obviously. I think DL had a scum read on donny for a while and the others seemed to move once you pointed out it was a good option to avoid a me/Flum decision. This made sense for Ghug and kgray who thought the me/Flum fight was TvT. The vote I don't get was Durga. She was happy with my wagon. She seemed to scum read me at the time pretty heavily and wanted me dead. Why would she want a reasonable out from the Flum/me wagons when she liked one of them? Also something seems off to me about celaph but I don't know enough to say there. Would need to do a full reread

[ghug]

Why?

Cause catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie fakes scumhunting.

Do you still townread him?

Hmm okay. I thought you said scum!Jamie does that to his teammates.

Yeah I think so. Catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie scumhunts. But he's tricky because I always think he's more Jamie-y than towny or scummy so I'm not that sure about him.

That was the example I gave because it was the first one that came to mind, but it's not exclusively a bussing thing.

He's not slam dunk or anything (I like rd more, for example), but I dislike that people are townreading him for something I think he's basically certain to do as scum and only fairly likely to do as town.

[kgray]

Cause catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie fakes scumhunting.

Do you still townread him?

Hmm okay. I thought you said scum!Jamie does that to his teammates.

Yeah I think so. Catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie scumhunts. But he's tricky because I always think he's more Jamie-y than towny or scummy so I'm not that sure about him.

That was the example I gave because it was the first one that came to mind, but it's not exclusively a bussing thing.

He's not slam dunk or anything (I like rd more, for example), but I dislike that people are townreading him for something I think he's basically certain to do as scum and only fairly likely to do as town.

Why do you scumread Rivera?

[kgray]

rdrivera said he was town, though.

So should I expect this to be your last comment on him before showing up near EOD and voting for him?

[ghug]

Hmm okay. I thought you said scum!Jamie does that to his teammates.

Yeah I think so. Catching someone in a lie and then hammering at them incessantly is one of the most common ways Jamie scumhunts. But he's tricky because I always think he's more Jamie-y than towny or scummy so I'm not that sure about him.

That was the example I gave because it was the first one that came to mind, but it's not exclusively a bussing thing.

He's not slam dunk or anything (I like rd more, for example), but I dislike that people are townreading him for something I think he's basically certain to do as scum and only fairly likely to do as town.

Why do you scumread Rivera?

Yesterday it most mostly just vibes and general milquetoastiness, but I found your case just upthread very compelling.

[kgray]

That was the example I gave because it was the first one that came to mind, but it's not exclusively a bussing thing.

He's not slam dunk or anything (I like rd more, for example), but I dislike that people are townreading him for something I think he's basically certain to do as scum and only fairly likely to do as town.

Why do you scumread Rivera?

Yesterday it most mostly just vibes and general milquetoastiness, but I found your case just upthread very compelling.

Hmm. One townpoint to Rivera then

[ghug]

Why do you scumread Rivera?

Yesterday it most mostly just vibes and general milquetoastiness, but I found your case just upthread very compelling.

Hmm. One townpoint to Rivera then

You're no fun.

[Jamiet99uk]

Where's Damo?

[rdrivera2005]

My thoughts on Rivera:

4 out of his first 6 posts have been him giving some sort of commentary about his reads. Then bozo makes his list of people who haven't done towny things and includes Rivera on it. I thought this was odd and questioned it.

Instead of reacting to his inclusion on the list or me questioning it, Rivera critiques Chaqa's scumread of bozo. I misremembered this - I thought Rivera defended bozo's list. He did later say bozo got town points for it.

This still feels weird to me, like bozo is maybe including his teammate on his list and his teammate isn't reacting to it, but tbh I'm pretty lukewarm on this now. Plus, when I later questioned why Rivera didn't want to kill bozo, his answer seemed solid. I'm suspicious of bozo for Flum-related reasons but I don't think this connection with Rivera is as strong as I thought.

The Flum thing bothers me most about Rivera though:

Jamie, since you wanted to know about my opinions of your arguments last time, I think your Fox case was much stronger than this Flum one.

Why exactly?

Flum back pedalling on his claim is weird and scummy. If he said, "yeah, I am lazy didn´t check and didn´t remember saying I was town last game", I think it would be NAI. But trying to change the meaning of that post is weird and scummy. And the case on Fox isn´t that solid, is a good one for D1 but it isn´t like a confirmed scum.

Rivera says twice Flum is being weird and scummy, but still doesn't vote for him (at this time, he's had his vote on no-kill because he was worried about not being around and getting modkilled). And he later says to Jamie that he is considering voting Flum, but doesn't.

A few hours later he says Flum's wagon is weird, as if he doesn't understand why they're voting for Flum:

I also hate I am at no-kill but I am having a hard time finding who to vote. Tfb isn't that bad of a choice but I don't want a runaway wagon. I could possibly vote for Celaph but you will yell at me.
I would vote for Fox but he subbed.
Flum wagon is weird and Bob is sleeping.

Anyone want to ##vote Ghug ? I got a feeling.

Jamie/Boatman made it very clear why they were voting him. I would get people questioning damo's vote if they don't know damo, but Rivera does know damo. And Rivera had also agreed with Flum being scummy so I see no reason why he would question that wagon. Flum was the only** person he directly said was scummy! And he shades the wagon instead of joining it.

Rivera's response is "why would I do this as scum" and yeah, I get that some because Flum flipped town. If Flum were scum then this might be a slam-dunk case. But why would Rivera do this as town? I think Flum was right, Rivera wanted to shade the push on what he knew would be a town flip. Obviously I don't know that boatman and Jamie and damo are town, but if they are then why shouldn't Rivera start planting the seeds for a push based on blaming townies for a miskill? I kind of got a similar vibe from him asking me why I hadn't voted Flum.

And if Rivera is scum then that doesn't look good for HR trying to get me to vote Flum based off my Rivera suspicions. But I still vibed with HR at EOD yesterday.

**Rivera said he thinks Fox was scummy but hedges by saying he always finds Fox scummy. And when I said I like Jamie's Fox case better than his Flum one, Rivera disagreed and defended Fox by saying the case isn't even that solid anyway (see the first quote above). But then later he says he would have voted Fox except that he subbed out, even though he thought Flum was scummier than Fox. I could totally see Rivera/Fox as teammates.

For me it´s look like you are convinced I am scum and are making arguments to justify this read instead of analosing what is happening and making conclusions. I just don´t know if this is plain scum trying to get a misskill or town tunneling.

I think Fox was scum but I always think Fox is scum, it´s not hedging, go look last game when even Fox said this. It´s something on his playstile that ping me the wrong way. Do you think killing Vecna without giving even a chance for him to post would have happened yesterday? That´s why I dismissed Fox wagon.

Also, I didn´t think Flum was scummier then Fox, I was completelly undecided about Flum and that´s why I changed my mind more then once. Being undecided isn´t a scum tell, scum know the answers and the best play to make. This is where I think you should know better and the reason I think you are more likely scum then a misguided town.