M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[Kakarroto]

Of people still alive:

People who voted for scum ONCE:
Damo666
rdrivera2005
Goldfinger

People who voted for scum TWICE:
BobMcBob

People who voted for scum ALL THREE times:
TheFlyingBoat
Jamiet99uk
Ghug
Donny Dude

People who have never been on a scum wagon at EoD:
Maniac

well, I don't know how the game will end, but in rereading I just found this gem fitting our current situation, bussing was indeed a core strategy from the last mafia player, though before I subbed there was a streak of miss votes. With the situation when I joined, it was the choice between damo and bob with said miss votes of townies. I haven't had another look at the reads or votes before (this is just an idea that just popped into my head after all), but I get the feeling the strategy was to make damo and the remaining mafia survive to the end and stop the bussing. Maybe some shading, but stop the bus.

Time to have a look at the progression in those days.

[ghug]

RIP Worcej.

Interesting kill. Worcej was scumreading me so I fear the kill was intended to set me up on the basis of "Oh Scum!Jamie killed Worcej because Worcej was scumreading him" and because there was tension between us in general.

So the GodFather is either Ghug or Kak.

This is difficult.

I was getting the impression with the last day (before his last post) that he was suspecting ghug much more than Jamie. Only in his EoN read he said that he suspected Jamie was mafia in his opinion. Maybe he was thinking it right away (right after the bob flip) and that came through subconsciously in his posts, but I don't see that, but I often miss such subtlety between the line things in these games. His last post was just a few seconds before EoN too, right before mine, so that wouldn't influence the night action, right?

Jamie, did you feel he was suspecting you more than ghug before his last post?

With my history I think I'd be capable to bus like this, sure. As ghug said, mafia bussed in this game so I'm not sure how much we can give credit anymore for all those actions.

Before your analysis, Jamie, I knew Donny's votes weren't bad, but to be this good, I'm surprised. I kinda feel now the game would've been solved if he was here and not subbed out. Although I'm thinking, why wouldn't the slot be a target for the night action with that good of a record? I mean I asked something like that before since Jamie looked to me as having a similar good record. Does mafia just think the vote record doesn't matter?

In that regard, ghug, can you tell me what made you tunnel on my slot so hard before? Was it more like a general feeling, a 'I don't want to let a Jamie/Kak situation happen', a 'donny bad so kak bad' thing? Or something completely different?

I wouldn't say i was really tunneling on you. I was starting to suspect Donny before he success, which ended up being the phase where worcej turned my read on him around and Jamie had a couple moments that made me doubt him. Yesterday I wanted you vs. Jamie because I townread the other two, and there was already some pressure on Jamie.

[Jamiet99uk]

RIP Worcej.

Interesting kill. Worcej was scumreading me so I fear the kill was intended to set me up on the basis of "Oh Scum!Jamie killed Worcej because Worcej was scumreading him" and because there was tension between us in general.

So the GodFather is either Ghug or Kak.

This is difficult.

I was getting the impression with the last day (before his last post) that he was suspecting ghug much more than Jamie. Only in his EoN read he said that he suspected Jamie was mafia in his opinion. Maybe he was thinking it right away (right after the bob flip) and that came through subconsciously in his posts, but I don't see that, but I often miss such subtlety between the line things in these games. His last post was just a few seconds before EoN too, right before mine, so that wouldn't influence the night action, right?

Jamie, did you feel he was suspecting you more than ghug before his last post?

Actually no, your version of events is accurate. Worcej declared Ghug a stronger scumread than me, other than when he was trying to troll me.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm finding it hard to see how Kak would be scum here.

Ghug is being very calm and nice and engaging but, sorry Ghug, it's got to be one of you.

##Vote Ghug

Casting my vote first but I could move it if I'm given a good reason to do so.

[Kakarroto]

reading that part of the game with that thought in mind right now kinda feels like a setup. ghug at the time wanted to go for Jamie and me (well Donny), damo was trying to get bob, said ghug was the gf, didn't want to go for RD, Jamie or myself (well Donny). Jamie went for bob, had a townlean on ghug but thought ghug might bus bob. A bit later he got doubtful about damo and said he need to reread him. Then I was subbed in.

with the voting it was 3 on bob and 2 on damo, (Jamie on bob, ghug on me/Donny), then jamie unvotes, I vote for myself and jamie votes me and I vote jamie to make it 2v2v2v1. After a while I move on damo, worcej consolidates on damo too, bob jumps on me making it 3v3v1 (worcej heavily defends me here), damo goes back to me and ghug consolidates last minute on damo while damo votes me.

so if my theory of mafia going away from bussing is true, ghug is more likely to be town. If I wouldn't know my role I'd say it would be a fifty/fifty between Jamie and myself, depending how you see the day damo got voted out a lean either on Jamie or me. Well maybe damo put ghug at his second and might've changed his mind the next day to go for an early win if they would've been successful in voting out bob, so calling it fifty/fifty is a bit wrong. It's also a long shot, most of my theories are just that, but sometimes I hit a bulls eye.

If nothing else, I think I figured out worcej was the targed tonight since he probably would've protected me again. I'm not too sure about it but it also kinda feels like ghug being dealt the worst hand possible. I'm just not convinced that maf ghug wouldn't just do that to make it look that way.

[Kakarroto]

My other observation is that we killed Bonatogether far too early, and my +1 rate is suffering as a result. Bona must be allowed to live until the endgame in every future game.

also, I'm nearly my 1000th post and haven't even gotten 250 upvotes, please help a poor soul out a bit (it doesn't help that I have the worst luck with playing only with bona when upvotes are forbidden )

[ghug]

I'm finding it hard to see how Kak would be scum here.

Ghug is being very calm and nice and engaging but, sorry Ghug, it's got to be one of you.

##Vote Ghug

Casting my vote first but I could move it if I'm given a good reason to do so.

Can you shed some light on your thought process here?

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm finding it hard to see how Kak would be scum here.

Ghug is being very calm and nice and engaging but, sorry Ghug, it's got to be one of you.

##Vote Ghug

Casting my vote first but I could move it if I'm given a good reason to do so.

Can you shed some light on your thought process here?

I think I have done.

If I'm truly wrong, persuade me how Kak is scum and you're town.

[Jamiet99uk]

I feel like I am the only person who is still trying.

[ghug]

I'm finding it hard to see how Kak would be scum here.

Ghug is being very calm and nice and engaging but, sorry Ghug, it's got to be one of you.

##Vote Ghug

Casting my vote first but I could move it if I'm given a good reason to do so.

Can you shed some light on your thought process here?

I think I have done.

If I'm truly wrong, persuade me how Kak is scum and you're town.

I'm not sure if Kak is scum or you are, which is why I'm asking you to explain your thought process. We've seen more of that from Kak and from me this phase, so it's hard to see how you're concluding that you're the only one still trying.

[Jamiet99uk]

Can you shed some light on your thought process here?

I think I have done.

If I'm truly wrong, persuade me how Kak is scum and you're town.

I'm not sure if Kak is scum or you are, which is why I'm asking you to explain your thought process. We've seen more of that from Kak and from me this phase, so it's hard to see how you're concluding that you're the only one still trying.

I don't agree with this summary of events.

My thought process, which I'd have though you could glean from what I've laid out in multiple posts this phase, is more or less as follows:

1. I know that I am town, so it's either Ghug or Kak.
2. For Donny / Kak to be scum, he would have to have bussed his team mates, all of them, very hard.
3. I'm inclined to say I don't believe Donny would have the brass balls to have consistently done that.
4. On balance I think I have to townread Kak.
5. Ghug is the only other person left.
6. I must vote for Ghug.

[Jamiet99uk]

7. I asked Ghug to try to persuade me otherwise, and got nothing much in response.

[ghug]

7. I asked Ghug to try to persuade me otherwise, and got nothing much in response.

Have you considered how hard I would have to have bussed my teammates?

[Jamiet99uk]

7. I asked Ghug to try to persuade me otherwise, and got nothing much in response.

Have you considered how hard I would have to have bussed my teammates?

Ok Ghug I'll do your vote summary. Hold on a minute.

[Jamiet99uk]

Day 1:
Ghug voted Bonatogether, was briefly on Damo, then Donny, then Rdrivera, then Bob, then jumped on Fluminator right at the end.

Day 2:
Ghug voted Hellenic Riot, then Bob, then Celaph, then HR again, then Celaph again, then me, then Celaph again.

Ghug's final vote for Celaph made it TFB 6 v Bob 4 v Celaph 4 v Vecna 3.

Seconds before Ghug's vote, Vecna had still been on 4 votes and was the wagon I was pushing. Possible Ghug bussing Goon Celaph over PR Vecna?

Day 3:
Ghug voted Durga, moved to HR, and then moved back onto Durga at EoD when she was a foregone conclusion.

This would be much milder bussing than if it was Donny doing it (as his vote on Durga was much more significant in terms of timing, as previously noted. Also interesting that Ghug moved off Durga when she was in the lead, and tried to push the counterwagon (HR) instead.

Day 4:
Ghug voted Goldworcej for most of the day, then Rdrivera, then Hellenic Riot, then Goldworcej again. Finally he moved onto Vecna when it was Vecna 8 vs Goldfinger 4.

This smacks of Ghug jumping onto a doomed team-mate at the last minute to gain exactly the kind of cred he is now trying to benefit from.

Day 5:
Ghug voted for me, then Rdrivera, and that was it. He stated on Rdrivera until the end.

Day 6:
In a repeat of D5, Ghug voted for me, then Rdrivera. He jumped onto Hellenic Riot at the very end of the phase.

Day 7:
Ghug voted for TFB and then DonnyKak.

Day 8:
Ghug voted for DonnyKak all day, and then jumped onto Damo in the final minute, when it was Damo 4 vs Kak 2. Keeping his vote where it was would have made no difference to Damo dying so again this looks like jumping onto a doomed team-mate at the last minute to gain some credit for their death.


This voting history looks pretty bad all things considered. It looks like Ghug tried to push HR to save Durga and only moved back onto Durga when she was doomed. Likewise he moved onto Vecna when this vote made no difference to the outcome, but just made sure his vote showed up as being on Vecna at the end. Likewise, he jumped onto Damo at the very last second when Damo was already going to be killed.

These all look like cred-bussing rather than hard-bussing. This is totally in Ghug's scum ballpark and I am happy with my vote.

[Jamiet99uk]

Attention please:

I will probably not be on at EoD. I need to be up quite early tomorrow.

I will still be around for the next four hours or so.

[ghug]

Ok, now it's getting spicy.

I'm going to disagree with a couple characterizations:
1. I left celaph day 2 because it was nonviable and returned when it was viable. He was my preferred kill all day.
2. I was a main early pusher of Durga, only moving off because the wagon was running away and I thought it was important to have a competitive day to avoid completely killing the game's momentum, which is what ended up happening to me.
3. I advocated against killing Vecna. I jumped on him for tie prevention, not out of any desire for cred. That wouldn't even count as a bus if I were scum, and certainly shouldn't be portrayed as my fishing for credit.

These get at two of the reasons I think I should be clearly town here:
1. My game isn't squeaky clean. There are missteps town wouldn't make. Why move off Durga at all? Why waste capital trying to save a clearly doomed and not really trying Vecna? There'd be reason for me to defend damo (though frankly that's the point in the game when I do like to bus), but the others don't fit patterns of scum interacting with wagons on their teammates
2. My actions all have clear motivation to keep the town moving. I claimed the roleblock to get reactions, when there's really not much reason to put my neck out there like that as scum. I pushed for a counterwagon to Durga because I didn't want the game to totally die. I voted Bob to break the tie and ensure a kill yesterday, even though either other outcome (a tie giving us only one remaining miskill or a switch from someone else to Jamie, keeping a Bob who was friendlier to my cause alive) would be better for me if I were scum. I've played in the best interests of town.

[Jamiet99uk]

You asked me about bussing so I looked for evidence of bussing in your votes, Ghug.

In point #2 you accept that you worked to create a counter-wagon to Durga. Your motivations for doing this may be what you say they were, or you may have been trying to save Durga. I can't confidently tell.

I accept point #3 that you were against killing Vecna.

So the thing is, if Kak is scum, Donny bussed his team mates SUPER hard. Is that what you think happened?

[ghug]

Thinking through Jamie's motivations here.

If he's town, he's reaching the wrong conclusion in good faith. I think this is plausible. His analysis of my voting is lazy and confbiasy, but I don't think this is outside of his town range, and Donny's voting history does look pretty solid.

If he's scum, he wants either me or Kak to join me on the other. Both of us have described uncertainty, so going for it isn't the worst call. The way he's tried to establish himself as the decider (asking me to convince him Kak is scum rather than focusing on trying to convince us of his role, for example) fits this narrative. The thing that gives me pause is that Kak's read me pretty favorably this phase and I've spent the last few days voting Kak, but I have spent most of the game scumreading Jamie to some extent, and I did say I thought it was him at some point today.

The last thing to consider here is his emotional investment. He's not seeming outwardly stressed or upset, and I don't see any great deal of doubt or uncertainty from him. I've seen town Jamie at a lot of KILOs, and this isn't the one I'm used to, which largely fits with the vibe read I've had for much of the game.

##VOTE Jamie

[ghug]

You asked me about bussing so I looked for evidence of bussing in your votes, Ghug.

In point #2 you accept that you worked to create a counter-wagon to Durga. Your motivations for doing this may be what you say they were, or you may have been trying to save Durga. I can't confidently tell.

I accept point #3 that you were against killing Vecna.

So the thing is, if Kak is scum, Donny bussed his team mates SUPER hard. Is that what you think happened?

Assuming I'm scum, though, why the hell do I push to defend Durga? I've set up a bus, I've gotten on it early, there's wide support in the town for her death, and she's not even present. You've bussed enough in your life to know that that's not when you get off the wagon.