M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

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goldfinger0303
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3461 Post by goldfinger0303 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:27 am

Chaqa wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:00 am
Or he could have gotten up from his computer, and it left the page open, and he hasn't even seen it yet.

BS like that is why I leave my activity hidden
I was actually reading in a car at a stoplight, and then came back on when I hit the next red, and then decided trying to type a response while driving wasn't the best look. I'm really only on my laptop right before I go to sleep anyways, so can't do too detailed of a response.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3462 Post by Durga » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:27 am

Idk now, I need to reread, but that was annoying

Stop voting me I'm not scum
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3463 Post by Durga » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:29 am

I also haven't read shit from today other than the last page, but that's a tomorrow problem byeeeeee
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3464 Post by BusinessLamp » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:44 am

Chaqa wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:56 am
I want to ##Vote BusinessLamp
is this my first vote of the game?? thats exciting
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3465 Post by goldfinger0303 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:46 am

Hellenic Riot wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:14 am

No, goldie. You don't get to say you only voted celaph as a joke when you clearly indicated otherwise at the time. What changed from him being someone you didn't feel that strongly about to someone you really wanted people to stay off, in the space of ten minutes? Vecna's utterly irrelevant to this, regardless of his alignment.
Okay, HR, let's test your British sense of humor then. Here's my shameless buddying of ghug all throughout the day, up until the point where I left him to land on my actual main scumread that was a wagon at the time. Emphasis is added.
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:03 am
ghug wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:01 am
Yeah, maybe gold is scum.
And here I was going to create a shrine to you in my remodeled closet, Helga Pataki style.
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:21 am
celaph wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 am

More seriously, I had been a little self conscious about buddying ever since Bob commented on it early.
Why would you care about someone pointing out you buddying? I'm shamelessly buddying ghug, and have been doing so from the beginning.

P.S. - ghug plz love me
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:29 am

But let's get a wagon going for ghuggles that he'd like more than the existing ones (although ghug you do realize your top scum read is a legit wagon right now?)

##vote HR
The only time I mentioned celaph's wagon in seriousness, I stated I had no strong opinions on it.
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:44 am
Yes, I am here.

I'm fine with ##vote demon to see where that leads us. I dislike that so much of this phase has revolved around Bob, and clearly Damo doesn't garner enough interest. But my thoughts on damo haven't changed - especially since they answered everyone else's questions and ignored mine.

The celaph wagon I honestly don't know enough about to put an opinion on. They seem to be okay-ish so far to me? But I can't recollect ever playing with them. Frankly their contributions D2 have been better than boat's in my fresh eyes.

HR and ghug - you're absolutely right, I have soft-gloated before like that as scum. Good catch (wow, I have a meta!). But I'm genuinely just hunting for anyone else who made offhand remarks about DL yesterday.
So when I logged off, I said I preferred Bob or TFB (one I was voting and highly scumread, the other I had remarked was doing scummy things that day) vs. celaph (who I said I was null on) and Vecna (who I slightly defended). Celaph was trying to pocket me with town reads of me, and to an extent they succeeded. I was aware of it (and posted as much in a response to Bob), but clearly didn't put enough thought into it.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3466 Post by BusinessLamp » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:47 am

sorry i was out tonight celebrating a friend's bday and then doing the same tomorrow morning which might turn into the whole day

i should probably make some sort of decision now then huh
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3467 Post by BusinessLamp » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:49 am

im lowkey losing faith in kgray because that post about "all the wagons have been stagnant except TFB" keep sticking out in my brain but i'll ignore that til tomorrow
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3468 Post by BusinessLamp » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:56 am

gonna ##vote durga before sleep

this might be like... salt in a wound or a point that is cheap to bring up, but the frustration over Chaqa using GM communication re: roleblock feels scum-motivated to me. like anger that a loophole in the rules or whatever is helping the town.

also don't like how she joined on the jamie push and then went to tfb (espec jamie push part)
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3469 Post by goldfinger0303 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:59 am

Donny Dude wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:56 am
I find it interesting that maniac has voted for hr after the hr push on goldfinger and switching from bob.
Maniac is being super low effort this game, but I think his flip onto HR and reasoning behind it is good. HR's push on me is also really forced (and I have suspicions on bona's sudden scum lean of me, after I said during the night they were on my scum radar)

My problem is most reference games I can remember for Maniac, they were either town PR or killed early on, so I don't have too much to go off of meta-wise. But at Chaqa would say, I'm getting decent vibes from them thus far.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3470 Post by Maniac » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:07 am

@goldfinger - if you agree with me that HR is scum then why did you leave his wagon? It always raises alarm bells with me when people say one thing and do another in real life and in game.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3471 Post by BusinessLamp » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:45 am

i can’t shake the feeling that HR saw all the pressure that was inevitably going to be coming his way today and then did that lengthy analysis as a way of fending it off. Not to take away that the analysis was great and very helpful, because it was. But it is also very objective —not really something that would be hard to fake. Just takes an extraordinant amount of effort. the “gee I hope I don’t get killed” to preface part three read as forced to me on first glance, too.

but it was so much time and effort put into it that I’m tempted to just respect it either way lol
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3472 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:59 am

So I'll first thank HR for doing the leg work of creating the nice VCA across three different scenarios. I lightly followed along while watching the Niners game but didn't really process anything due to the actual heart-attack inducing madness that that game was. I will actually read everything tomorrow morning/afternoon after I recover from today's celebration of the Niners beating Green Bay and staying up far too late to watch the X Games and the Australian Open. Until then I will give my semi-drunken thoughts on his Scenario A as I get to operate on the knowledge that I am town. Anything in quotes is HR's opinion.


Scenario A: TFB is town

1:11: celaph votes TFB

Wagons are:
celaph (5): ghug, goldie, HR, kgray, Vecna
BobMcBob (4): damo, Donny Dude, Maniac, rdrivera
TheFlyingBoat (4): Bonatogether, celaph, Chaqa, Durga
Vecna (3): Bozotheclown, Jamie, TheFlyingBoat
Others: BobMcBob (Goldie), BusinessLamp (Unvote), DemonRHK (damo)
First point: celaph voting TFB rather than Vecna looks good for TFB and less good for Vecna. celaph had earlier townread/"buddied" Bob, so a Bob vote was probably harder for him to justify and thus less relevant.
Well what's interesting here is that celaph actually voted for Bob D1 and opened D2 (didn't post at all at night) by shading Bob for posting a bunch of fluff and for not liking the way he framed convos. He only flips after rereading HR's defense of Bob on page 86 in the first hour of the night. The question is celaph trying to fake a read evolution, switch from hating on to buddying Bob to pocket him, or something else altogether?

He does also try to townread Vecna lazily by saying he liked his Goldie recap and then tries to say based on meta he townreads Vecna while caveating that the meta evidence seemed to be weaker than he remembered, presumably to set up in advance the walk back if Vecna got popped and turned out to be scum.

Now, going forward.
1:01 - kgray switches from celaph to TFB (4 celaph, 4 Bob, 5 TFB, 3 Vecna)
0:56 - RHK switches from damo to Vecna (4 celaph, 4 Bob, 5 TFB, 4 Vecna)
0:25 - ghug switches from celaph to Jamie (3 celaph, 4 Bob, 5 TFB, 4 Vecna, 1 Jamie)
None of these trio of votes look particularly good, though kgray's obviously looks worst.
I disagree on RHK's and don't follow HR's analysis here given he seemed to indicate Celaph picking me over Vecna when we were equally sized Bob counter wagons. Under that view, surely RHK's vote looks mostly fine while kgray's and ghug's don't look great with as he said kgray's looking the worst.

0:24 - Donny unvotes Bob (3 celaph, 3 Bob, 5 TFB, 4 Vecna, 1 Jamie)
0:24 - Goldie switches from celaph to Bob (2 celaph, 4 Bob, 5 TFB, 4 Vecna, 1 Jamie) - Nadir of celaph wagon
Should be noted - again - That soon after this, Goldie states that he dislikes the celaph wagon... Having only just left it. That looks atrocious.
Yeah HR finally has something I can't really quibble with at really. Goldie's vote looks suspect in context and looks like scum trying to gut the celaph wagon for good after having brought it up in the first place as a sort of inoculation.

0:22 - BusinessLamp switches from Unvote to TFB (2, 4, 6, 4, 1)
0:19 - Bob switches from goldie to Jamie (2, 4, 6, 4, 2)
0:19 - Durga switches from TFB to Jamie (2, 4, 5, 4, 3) - Peak Jamie reached
The Jamie wagon, interestingly, seems to rise more as a response to TFB taking a significant lead than to anything to do with celaph.
That was weird, especially given Durga scum read me earlier in the day and the day before as well. Trying to avoid responsibility under the assumption I still die perhaps? Bob's votes doesn't seem like there's much to read into given he moved from one meaningless wagon to another?

0:11 - Donny switches from unvote to TFB (2, 4, 6, 4, 3)
0:08 - TFB switches from Vecna to celaph (3, 4, 6, 3, 3)
TFB's change is interesting given he was the lead wagon and he moved on to celaph rather than staying on Vecna (though given the stasis of Vecna at 3, that may not be unreasonable)... But also, not moving on to Bob. Looks good.
For reference, I did say celaph was my second strongest scum read prior to that vote change and you are correct that the reason was I believed the Vecna wagon was dead. Reason for not switching onto Bob was that he wasn't in my top 6 (for reference: Vecna,Celaph,rdr,Durga,Bona,Damo). But yeah also think this analysis is reasonable.
0:08 - ghug switches from Jamie back to celaph (4, 4, 6, 3, 2) - Vote looks very good. End of Jamie as a credible wagon.

0:07 - Chaqa switches from TFB to celaph (5, 4, 5, 3, 2) - Another vote that looks very good if TFB is town

0:04 - Jamie switches from Vecna to Bob (5, 5, 5, 2, 2) - A vote that looks a lot less good. End of Vecna as a credible wagon.

0:03 - Bob switches from Jamie to TFB (5, 5, 6, 2, 1)
0:02 - Durga switches from Jamie to TFB (5, 5, 7, 2)
0:02 - HR switches from celaph to TFB (4, 5, 8, 2)

A trio of votes that all look awful if TFB is town. Peak TFB reached.
Very simple and largely unobjectionable analysis above imo.

I think ghug prides himself in generating miskills as scum, even if it means he become a blatantly obvious scum member. Therefore I think he'd happily let me die or force the wagon onto another townie rather than let celaph die right there unnecessarily. If he doesn't switch onto celaph and it looks like with two mins to go it is 8-4, I don't think any meaningful switches to celaph happen. But even more important than the vote is the argument that if I were scum then I should have fake claimed a role. The fact he brought it up is either a 4D chess bus then pocket plan, or just evidence that ghug is probably town. If he didn't say that I almost certainly die.

Yeah I like the Chaqa vote a lot, especially if you pair it with the claims of a role block. Though I could easily see Chaqa bussing AND claiming the RB after doing an RB/NK pair for the sake of setting up the fake claim.

The latter 3 are all pretty self-explanatory as to why they're bad.
0:02 - RHK switches from Vecna to celaph (5, 5, 8, 1) - A vote that looks very good... Except that it's so close to the deadline that maybe it looks like a convenient way to have ended on a partner without thinking they would die.

0:02 - Bozo switches from Vecna to celaph (6, 5, 8) - A vote that looks very good, and if he saw RHK's first, looks exceptional

0:01 - Donny switches from TFB to celaph (7, 5, 7) - A vote that ties it very close to EoD, and only takes place ten minutes after he voted TFB. This vote, of all of those that moved at the end, definitely looks the most questionable

0:01 - Jamie switches from Bob to celaph (8, 4, 7)
0:01 - rdrivera switches from Bob to celaph (9, 3, 7)

Two votes that look very good, particularly if TFB is town.
Once again, mostly simple and largely unobjectionable here as well.

Agreed on Donny's vote being questionable, but ultimately I think he was more lost town than actual scum. I disagree partially on the Jamie/rdr ones as they also could have been trying to tie. We have no idea what they saw, how well they counted, etc. in the chaos. I still am a bit sus on rdr, but perhaps that deserves a re-read and still positive on jamie and think him going back on Vecna here just seems very Jamie-y.

I think out of this ghug comes out looking incredibly townie as probably the single most important person when it came to flipping the expected result with like 2 minutes left in the turn and has unquestionably become my strongest town read.

From pure voting and wagon pushing, I think Durga and HR probably look the worst by a decent margin. Running up the score like that at the time they did looks like trying to nail the coffin shut by creating a massive delta that people are disinclined to overcome.

That being said, I've generally found HR's vibes to be pretty townie to date, but I am sure HR is good at faking that, so idk. Part of me thinks this VCA was made partially to get out in front of others making their own and going after him, partially because that effort is a good way to look townie. Especially with three scenarios in there that point to vastly different results, it seems like an easy way for HR to effortlessly hide in plain sight and cast aspersions, sometimes even mutually exclusive aspersions, and let them all hang in the air despite that. Unlike other scum reads where you are looked at funny if you don't actually vote for them, HR can likely flit between his scum teams across all three scenarios as vote targets with relative ease, which is just incredibly clever.

Bob looks pretty bad for breaking the tie against me, but I also find it hard to believe with his play he is scum, though maybe I am crazy.

Also worth considering in the context surrounding the TFB vs Celaph VCA, are kgray (my first time as leading wagon that day) and bona (my first vote), two people who not only were largely responsible for me supplanting celaph in the first place with their votes, but also were the most vocal and ardent supporters of the wagon staying strong at the end, even though kgray seemed receptive to the arguments ghug made at the time.

I would put Bona behind kgray though as bona's insistence even in D3 that I must be the wagon has me thinking it may just be bona being bona. Then again, I did like kgray's posts before this and I do respect Flum's reads on her a lot, even it was just a D1 one, so I'd probably be much more receptive to other wagons, at least initially.

##vote durga

Good night. See y'all tomorrow :D
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3473 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:00 am

BusinessLamp wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:45 am
i can’t shake the feeling that HR saw all the pressure that was inevitably going to be coming his way today and then did that lengthy analysis as a way of fending it off. Not to take away that the analysis was great and very helpful, because it was. But it is also very objective —not really something that would be hard to fake. Just takes an extraordinant amount of effort. the “gee I hope I don’t get killed” to preface part three read as forced to me on first glance, too.

but it was so much time and effort put into it that I’m tempted to just respect it either way lol
oh wow it seems I got sniped while typing. Agreed.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3474 Post by rdrivera2005 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 am

Maniac wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:22 am
##vote HR

His D1 vote could be trying to save scum buddy Bob or TFB.
His D2 vote could be moving from scum buddy Celaph to Scum Buddy TFB for town cred.
What really jumps out to me though is his strong scum reading of Celaph and then almost zero advocating for his daykill especially in final minutes when it was still likely. HR I’m general strikes me as a leader who when he is convinced someone is scum will push that kill. His sliding on to someone who he hasn’t really expressed a strong scum read on seems out of town!HR character.
I like this post.

I remember that ship game when I caught him for not pushing people after questioning hem and then he just set me to be miskilled (and he is good at it).

##vote HR
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3475 Post by rdrivera2005 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:41 am

BusinessLamp wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:45 am
i can’t shake the feeling that HR saw all the pressure that was inevitably going to be coming his way today and then did that lengthy analysis as a way of fending it off. Not to take away that the analysis was great and very helpful, because it was. But it is also very objective —not really something that would be hard to fake. Just takes an extraordinant amount of effort. the “gee I hope I don’t get killed” to preface part three read as forced to me on first glance, too.

but it was so much time and effort put into it that I’m tempted to just respect it either way lol
I respect HR game as both alignments and he is totally capable of doing that lengthy (and good) analysis as any alignment.
The points Maniac described is what makes me believe he is scum. HR isn't hedgy and push hard his scumreads when he is town (more or less what he is doing with Gold today).
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3476 Post by damo666 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:47 am

Sorry for going missing. I had a minor accident but ok now.

Somebody give me a quick summary of what I've missed.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3477 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:53 am

damo666 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:47 am
Sorry for going missing. I had a minor accident but ok now.

Somebody give me a quick summary of what I've missed.
I hope you're okay Damo.

We daykilled Celaph, who was a Mafia Goon.
EoD2 also involved wagons on TFB, Bob, and briefly a silly flashwagon on me created by Ghug and Durga.

Bonatogether reacted very weirdly to Celaph's flip, flying into a rage and berating everyone for not flipping TFB who he is apparently certain is a Mafia PR.

I have provided a detailed prediction of the most likely scum. You can read it if you iso me from last night.

HR and Goldfinger are now arguing.
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There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3478 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:54 am

You like doing wagon analysis, and EoD2 provides plenty of opportunity for that.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3479 Post by damo666 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:13 pm

Thanks will endeavour to catch up. I see we lost our doctor.

Just some bruising.
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Re: M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

#3480 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:25 pm

damo666 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:13 pm
Thanks will endeavour to catch up. I see we lost our doctor.

Just some bruising.
Yes, Dr. Bozo was starting to get into the full investigative hard working Bozo that we know and love, so dey keeled heem.
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