MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

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TheFlyingBoat
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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4401 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:11 pm
Sorry bozo. I don't want a tie. I want to win.
What I suspect TFB plans to do is switch his vote off of me at the last minute to force a tie, to set up a prisoner's dilemma N6. If we both go for the solo win N6, we NK each other and town wins. If only one of us NKs the other, that player would win. If we both NK TFB, we tie for the win.

This is the only good play left for town, so I assume that is why TFB wanted to make sure you left him alive for D6.

So, unless TFB is willing to hammer me, you have a choice to accept the joint mafia win today or risk losing N6.

##VOTE TheFlyingBoat
From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.
Yes. Some might interpret a "tie" as a shared loss. It is not a shared win. But yes, there is a scenario where that can happen.


There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo

Tick tock

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4402 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:06 am

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:11 pm
Sorry bozo. I don't want a tie. I want to win.
What I suspect TFB plans to do is switch his vote off of me at the last minute to force a tie, to set up a prisoner's dilemma N6. If we both go for the solo win N6, we NK each other and town wins. If only one of us NKs the other, that player would win. If we both NK TFB, we tie for the win.

This is the only good play left for town, so I assume that is why TFB wanted to make sure you left him alive for D6.

So, unless TFB is willing to hammer me, you have a choice to accept the joint mafia win today or risk losing N6.

##VOTE TheFlyingBoat
From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.
Yes. Some might interpret a "tie" as a shared loss. It is not a shared win. But yes, there is a scenario where that can happen.


There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo

Tick tock
End it boatman.

I hammered bozo.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4403 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:43 am

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:11 pm
Sorry bozo. I don't want a tie. I want to win.
What I suspect TFB plans to do is switch his vote off of me at the last minute to force a tie, to set up a prisoner's dilemma N6. If we both go for the solo win N6, we NK each other and town wins. If only one of us NKs the other, that player would win. If we both NK TFB, we tie for the win.

This is the only good play left for town, so I assume that is why TFB wanted to make sure you left him alive for D6.

So, unless TFB is willing to hammer me, you have a choice to accept the joint mafia win today or risk losing N6.

##VOTE TheFlyingBoat
From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.
Yes. Some might interpret a "tie" as a shared loss. It is not a shared win. But yes, there is a scenario where that can happen.


There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo

Tick tock
I don't know why you think I was playing the "entire game" for a tie. When my teammates where eliminated by D2, my goal was to try to get rid of the other mafia team before they NKed me and then try to survive the DKs until the end of the game. That is why I NKed ghug N2, pushed for captainmeme's DK D3 (when the scan was revealed), and NKed rdrivera N3 (he was my best guess at the time for the last E mafia). Even D4 I was hoping Macca would turn out to be the last E mafia, because I thought I still had a narrow path to victory (NK Foxcastle N4, mis-kill damo D5, NK you N5, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and lfischl, needing a mis-kill). It was not until D5 that I was relatively confident that BesharamSabi was the other mafia (I could not afford any more Foxcastle scans, where Foxcastle was not the biggest threat to the forger, so I thought brainbomb or damo, being relatively more experienced in mafia than BesharamSabi, would have realized that and NKed someone else). I knew D5, though, that I would have a tough time avoiding the DK, and had no real chance of getting BesharamSabi DKed ahead of me, so at that point I decided to go for the damo mis-kill, knowing that a draw was likely the best result I could obtain. However, I was planning on staying quiet N5 knowing BesharamSabi would likely NK a clear, withhold my NK, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and the remaining clear, and doing my best to convince the last clear that I was the 1 town of the remaining 3. It was not until brainbomb tried to trick BesharamSabi into NKing me that I decided my best option was to go for the draw.

In diplomacy, I play for the solo win. When that is no longer possible or very improbable, I play to be included in a draw. I think that most diplomacy players would agree that being included in the draw is better than being eliminated.

I think this is the proper interpretation for this game:
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm
damo666 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:19 pm

@GM if it is left with 2 scum is it a 2 way draw, a 3 way draw (ie an auto 3wd at 1-1-1), or nobody wins?
If 2 scum are left and nobody else, then town loses and scum share in a draw.

1-1-1 however is *not* an automatic draw.
It is fair to call it a draw instead of a "joint win", but from my point of view, it is still better than being eliminated, and I am OK playing for the draw here because I no longer see any path to victory.

I don't care if you want to give BesharamSabi and their team the win, but I take my obligation to the game when drawing mafia seriously, even though it is not my preference to play as mafia. As part of that obligation, my interpretation is that it is the proper play in this setup to play for a draw with one of the other teams when a win is not possible or very improbable. Based on what BesharamSabi has already said, I consider it very improbable that I would be able to win in the scenario you presented, so I think the proper play for me is to try to convince BesharamSabi to accept the draw.

From your position, however, you have no chance at a draw, and your only chance at a win is to try to force a tie vote D6, so hammering me and letting BesharamSabi win when you would lose instead of being included in a draw would go against the argument you made, so I have to assume that you have no intention of hammering me and that you plan on doing whatever you can to force a tie vote today.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4404 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:08 am

BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:06 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm


What I suspect TFB plans to do is switch his vote off of me at the last minute to force a tie, to set up a prisoner's dilemma N6. If we both go for the solo win N6, we NK each other and town wins. If only one of us NKs the other, that player would win. If we both NK TFB, we tie for the win.

This is the only good play left for town, so I assume that is why TFB wanted to make sure you left him alive for D6.

So, unless TFB is willing to hammer me, you have a choice to accept the joint mafia win today or risk losing N6.

##VOTE TheFlyingBoat
From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.
Yes. Some might interpret a "tie" as a shared loss. It is not a shared win. But yes, there is a scenario where that can happen.


There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo
a
Tick tock
End it boatman.

I hammered bozo.
Based on TFB's position on "playing to win", I think the assumption you can make is that he will not hammer me and that he plans to change his vote to no-kill at EOD to try to win N6.

TFB says you and I should play to win at all cost, giving up a sure draw for a small chance at a win. I disagree, I think we should take the sure draw instead of risking a likely town victory. As a diplomacy player, I am certain you understand my position, whether or not you agree with it.

If you vote for TFB, the 2 mafia teams will draw. Not an ideal result, but better than being eliminated in a town victory. If you end D6 voting for me and TFB changes his vote forcing a no-kill, I will NK you N6. I do not mean that in a retaliatory way, but if you fail to take the draw today despite TFB going the entire D6 without hammering me, then the only assumption I can make is that you plan to play for the small chance at a victory N6,which means you plan to NK me. I could do what TFB says I should do and tell you we should NK TFB for him switching his vote, and then NK you hoping you actually NK TFB. However, that is not what I would do in that scenario. I am telling you now that if there is a N6 I will order the NK of you and not look at the game again until N6 is over. I am telling you this now so that you know your choice today, if TFB does not hammer me, is to accept the draw or let town win.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4405 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:21 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:43 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:44 pm


What I suspect TFB plans to do is switch his vote off of me at the last minute to force a tie, to set up a prisoner's dilemma N6. If we both go for the solo win N6, we NK each other and town wins. If only one of us NKs the other, that player would win. If we both NK TFB, we tie for the win.

This is the only good play left for town, so I assume that is why TFB wanted to make sure you left him alive for D6.

So, unless TFB is willing to hammer me, you have a choice to accept the joint mafia win today or risk losing N6.

##VOTE TheFlyingBoat
From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.
Yes. Some might interpret a "tie" as a shared loss. It is not a shared win. But yes, there is a scenario where that can happen.


There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo

Tick tock
I don't know why you think I was playing the "entire game" for a tie. When my teammates where eliminated by D2, my goal was to try to get rid of the other mafia team before they NKed me and then try to survive the DKs until the end of the game. That is why I NKed ghug N2, pushed for captainmeme's DK D3 (when the scan was revealed), and NKed rdrivera N3 (he was my best guess at the time for the last E mafia). Even D4 I was hoping Macca would turn out to be the last E mafia, because I thought I still had a narrow path to victory (NK Foxcastle N4, mis-kill damo D5, NK you N5, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and lfischl, needing a mis-kill). It was not until D5 that I was relatively confident that BesharamSabi was the other mafia (I could not afford any more Foxcastle scans, where Foxcastle was not the biggest threat to the forger, so I thought brainbomb or damo, being relatively more experienced in mafia than BesharamSabi, would have realized that and NKed someone else). I knew D5, though, that I would have a tough time avoiding the DK, and had no real chance of getting BesharamSabi DKed ahead of me, so at that point I decided to go for the damo mis-kill, knowing that a draw was likely the best result I could obtain. However, I was planning on staying quiet N5 knowing BesharamSabi would likely NK a clear, withhold my NK, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and the remaining clear, and doing my best to convince the last clear that I was the 1 town of the remaining 3. It was not until brainbomb tried to trick BesharamSabi into NKing me that I decided my best option was to go for the draw.

In diplomacy, I play for the solo win. When that is no longer possible or very improbable, I play to be included in a draw. I think that most diplomacy players would agree that being included in the draw is better than being eliminated.

I think this is the proper interpretation for this game:
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm
damo666 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:19 pm

@GM if it is left with 2 scum is it a 2 way draw, a 3 way draw (ie an auto 3wd at 1-1-1), or nobody wins?
If 2 scum are left and nobody else, then town loses and scum share in a draw.

1-1-1 however is *not* an automatic draw.
It is fair to call it a draw instead of a "joint win", but from my point of view, it is still better than being eliminated, and I am OK playing for the draw here because I no longer see any path to victory.

I don't care if you want to give BesharamSabi and their team the win, but I take my obligation to the game when drawing mafia seriously, even though it is not my preference to play as mafia. As part of that obligation, my interpretation is that it is the proper play in this setup to play for a draw with one of the other teams when a win is not possible or very improbable. Based on what BesharamSabi has already said, I consider it very improbable that I would be able to win in the scenario you presented, so I think the proper play for me is to try to convince BesharamSabi to accept the draw.

From your position, however, you have no chance at a draw, and your only chance at a win is to try to force a tie vote D6, so hammering me and letting BesharamSabi win when you would lose instead of being included in a draw would go against the argument you made, so I have to assume that you have no intention of hammering me and that you plan on doing whatever you can to force a tie vote today.
Oh but Bozo my friend, I know if I intentionally stall all the way until the end you will probably convince Sabi to vote for me in the expectation of late shenanigans.

Your argument won't make any sense given that Sabi would be no worse off if I never hammer as the option for both of you point your guns at me in the night still exists if I switch to no kill while the possibility Sabi wins and that I just fell asleep the moment I got back home (where I would actually have wifi) is pretty high given it would be around 2:30-3am when I get back and my vote would stay on you without change. (Reminder that despite setting an alarm for 4:20am I woke up and immediately fell back asleep within a minute and slept through EON)

That being said, you're incredibly persuasive, there will be a large patch of time I can't respond, and this is Sabi's first time in a forum mafia where their decision could win or lose them the game on the spot. If you do not hammer no kill I, just like brainbomb would, will hammer you to make sure the leverage to kill at least one mafia team isn't taken out of my hands. Because if you're not willing to go to the night despite knowing you will lose otherwise, I'm not going to risk you weaseling your way into a draw if I can't stay up to 4:30 am.

You can ask Sabi, I have absolutely no problem punishing bad play when push comes to shove, and have thrown solos to do so. And make no mistake, I will punish you if I don't see you hammering no kill around 38 hours from now.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4406 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:16 am

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:21 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:43 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:35 am


From Jamie when asked by Sabi if this game could end in a tie.



There is no such thing as a shared win. Your object is to eliminate the town and the enemy mafia or to make such an event essentially fait accompli. You have failed at that task if you choose to vote for me and tie. The only way you can win this game is to go into the night and hope you can convince Sabi to shoot me instead of you by lying to them that the best play is for both of you to shoot me and then surreptitiously taking your shot at them while they shoot me. Now when I made the threat I was very angry with your play and viewed it as playing away from your win condition by playing he entire game to go for a tie instead of a win. And st that point I was willing to kill you without giving you any shot at redemption as punishment for the poor play and a lesson to never do so again. While not as angry as brainbomb, I was pretty damn close, even though I chose to keep some of it inside

That being said, this is a new year and a new new me. I'm trying to be kinder, gentler than I have in the past. To that end I'll offer you mercy.

If you hammer a no kill vote, I will follow you with a hammer and you can sort out that dilemma you mentioned with Sabi. You clearly have given that scenario more thought than I have and I thank you for mentioning it.

Otherwise, I'm going to be hammering you once I get back from dropping my cousin off at the airport on Jan 4th around 2:30 am (Jan 3rd 1pm Pacific). I won't be on here much between the next couple hours and then, since I intend to spend the remaining time I can with family before they fly back to Chicago, and I figure with time differences it is very likely there will be long gaps between us seeing each other's posts.

To be clear the only way this phase ends is with a no kill or with you dying and Sabi getting a well, well deserved win. They managed to slip under the radar incredibly well so as far as I'm concerned if you're not going to play to win bozo, I should reward the one scum team that is.

##VOTE bozo

Tick tock
I don't know why you think I was playing the "entire game" for a tie. When my teammates where eliminated by D2, my goal was to try to get rid of the other mafia team before they NKed me and then try to survive the DKs until the end of the game. That is why I NKed ghug N2, pushed for captainmeme's DK D3 (when the scan was revealed), and NKed rdrivera N3 (he was my best guess at the time for the last E mafia). Even D4 I was hoping Macca would turn out to be the last E mafia, because I thought I still had a narrow path to victory (NK Foxcastle N4, mis-kill damo D5, NK you N5, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and lfischl, needing a mis-kill). It was not until D5 that I was relatively confident that BesharamSabi was the other mafia (I could not afford any more Foxcastle scans, where Foxcastle was not the biggest threat to the forger, so I thought brainbomb or damo, being relatively more experienced in mafia than BesharamSabi, would have realized that and NKed someone else). I knew D5, though, that I would have a tough time avoiding the DK, and had no real chance of getting BesharamSabi DKed ahead of me, so at that point I decided to go for the damo mis-kill, knowing that a draw was likely the best result I could obtain. However, I was planning on staying quiet N5 knowing BesharamSabi would likely NK a clear, withhold my NK, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and the remaining clear, and doing my best to convince the last clear that I was the 1 town of the remaining 3. It was not until brainbomb tried to trick BesharamSabi into NKing me that I decided my best option was to go for the draw.

In diplomacy, I play for the solo win. When that is no longer possible or very improbable, I play to be included in a draw. I think that most diplomacy players would agree that being included in the draw is better than being eliminated.

I think this is the proper interpretation for this game:
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm


If 2 scum are left and nobody else, then town loses and scum share in a draw.

1-1-1 however is *not* an automatic draw.
It is fair to call it a draw instead of a "joint win", but from my point of view, it is still better than being eliminated, and I am OK playing for the draw here because I no longer see any path to victory.

I don't care if you want to give BesharamSabi and their team the win, but I take my obligation to the game when drawing mafia seriously, even though it is not my preference to play as mafia. As part of that obligation, my interpretation is that it is the proper play in this setup to play for a draw with one of the other teams when a win is not possible or very improbable. Based on what BesharamSabi has already said, I consider it very improbable that I would be able to win in the scenario you presented, so I think the proper play for me is to try to convince BesharamSabi to accept the draw.

From your position, however, you have no chance at a draw, and your only chance at a win is to try to force a tie vote D6, so hammering me and letting BesharamSabi win when you would lose instead of being included in a draw would go against the argument you made, so I have to assume that you have no intention of hammering me and that you plan on doing whatever you can to force a tie vote today.
Oh but Bozo my friend, I know if I intentionally stall all the way until the end you will probably convince Sabi to vote for me in the expectation of late shenanigans.

Your argument won't make any sense given that Sabi would be no worse off if I never hammer as the option for both of you point your guns at me in the night still exists if I switch to no kill while the possibility Sabi wins and that I just fell asleep the moment I got back home (where I would actually have wifi) is pretty high given it would be around 2:30-3am when I get back and my vote would stay on you without change. (Reminder that despite setting an alarm for 4:20am I woke up and immediately fell back asleep within a minute and slept through EON)

That being said, you're incredibly persuasive, there will be a large patch of time I can't respond, and this is Sabi's first time in a forum mafia where their decision could win or lose them the game on the spot. If you do not hammer no kill I, just like brainbomb would, will hammer you to make sure the leverage to kill at least one mafia team isn't taken out of my hands. Because if you're not willing to go to the night despite knowing you will lose otherwise, I'm not going to risk you weaseling your way into a draw if I can't stay up to 4:30 am.

You can ask Sabi, I have absolutely no problem punishing bad play when push comes to shove, and have thrown solos to do so. And make no mistake, I will punish you if I don't see you hammering no kill around 38 hours from now.
I have never thrown a solo in a diplomacy game. I consider losing to a solo the worse possible outcome in a diplomacy game, so if I am headed for elimination, I do whatever I can to prevent a solo while I am still in the game. Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4407 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:04 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:16 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:21 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:43 am


I don't know why you think I was playing the "entire game" for a tie. When my teammates where eliminated by D2, my goal was to try to get rid of the other mafia team before they NKed me and then try to survive the DKs until the end of the game. That is why I NKed ghug N2, pushed for captainmeme's DK D3 (when the scan was revealed), and NKed rdrivera N3 (he was my best guess at the time for the last E mafia). Even D4 I was hoping Macca would turn out to be the last E mafia, because I thought I still had a narrow path to victory (NK Foxcastle N4, mis-kill damo D5, NK you N5, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and lfischl, needing a mis-kill). It was not until D5 that I was relatively confident that BesharamSabi was the other mafia (I could not afford any more Foxcastle scans, where Foxcastle was not the biggest threat to the forger, so I thought brainbomb or damo, being relatively more experienced in mafia than BesharamSabi, would have realized that and NKed someone else). I knew D5, though, that I would have a tough time avoiding the DK, and had no real chance of getting BesharamSabi DKed ahead of me, so at that point I decided to go for the damo mis-kill, knowing that a draw was likely the best result I could obtain. However, I was planning on staying quiet N5 knowing BesharamSabi would likely NK a clear, withhold my NK, and go into D6 with BesharamSabi, brainbomb, and the remaining clear, and doing my best to convince the last clear that I was the 1 town of the remaining 3. It was not until brainbomb tried to trick BesharamSabi into NKing me that I decided my best option was to go for the draw.

In diplomacy, I play for the solo win. When that is no longer possible or very improbable, I play to be included in a draw. I think that most diplomacy players would agree that being included in the draw is better than being eliminated.

I think this is the proper interpretation for this game:



It is fair to call it a draw instead of a "joint win", but from my point of view, it is still better than being eliminated, and I am OK playing for the draw here because I no longer see any path to victory.

I don't care if you want to give BesharamSabi and their team the win, but I take my obligation to the game when drawing mafia seriously, even though it is not my preference to play as mafia. As part of that obligation, my interpretation is that it is the proper play in this setup to play for a draw with one of the other teams when a win is not possible or very improbable. Based on what BesharamSabi has already said, I consider it very improbable that I would be able to win in the scenario you presented, so I think the proper play for me is to try to convince BesharamSabi to accept the draw.

From your position, however, you have no chance at a draw, and your only chance at a win is to try to force a tie vote D6, so hammering me and letting BesharamSabi win when you would lose instead of being included in a draw would go against the argument you made, so I have to assume that you have no intention of hammering me and that you plan on doing whatever you can to force a tie vote today.
Oh but Bozo my friend, I know if I intentionally stall all the way until the end you will probably convince Sabi to vote for me in the expectation of late shenanigans.

Your argument won't make any sense given that Sabi would be no worse off if I never hammer as the option for both of you point your guns at me in the night still exists if I switch to no kill while the possibility Sabi wins and that I just fell asleep the moment I got back home (where I would actually have wifi) is pretty high given it would be around 2:30-3am when I get back and my vote would stay on you without change. (Reminder that despite setting an alarm for 4:20am I woke up and immediately fell back asleep within a minute and slept through EON)

That being said, you're incredibly persuasive, there will be a large patch of time I can't respond, and this is Sabi's first time in a forum mafia where their decision could win or lose them the game on the spot. If you do not hammer no kill I, just like brainbomb would, will hammer you to make sure the leverage to kill at least one mafia team isn't taken out of my hands. Because if you're not willing to go to the night despite knowing you will lose otherwise, I'm not going to risk you weaseling your way into a draw if I can't stay up to 4:30 am.

You can ask Sabi, I have absolutely no problem punishing bad play when push comes to shove, and have thrown solos to do so. And make no mistake, I will punish you if I don't see you hammering no kill around 38 hours from now.
I have never thrown a solo in a diplomacy game. I consider losing to a solo the worse possible outcome in a diplomacy game, so if I am headed for elimination, I do whatever I can to prevent a solo while I am still in the game. Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
This entire post is just two non-sequiturs lmao, but I'll engage with the ridiculous conclusions anyways, because why not.
Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.
Losing to a "draw" is a loss. Losing to a mafia win is a loss. They are both losses that are indistinguishable from one another. This is just silly. Honestly this so called 1-1 draw or tie is really a 0-0-0 where no one wins and everyone is dead and that's how it ought to be treated, but sadly I don't write the rules. Given that they're indistinguishable, I choose to play kingmaker and reward the party that played the game to win.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
Actually, much like Jon Snow, you know nothing, bozo. You have no way of having any certainty as to whether Sabi would kill me or you in N6. Sabi having their vote on you just means they intend to take the win I intend to hand them unless given a reason to do otherwise.

Regardless, bozo, given that you know I have thrown solos to punish bad players, you really should re-examine your confidence in my behavior and focus on what I would do given that knowledge and less on what you would do, given that apparently you will never throw a solo even as your opponent tries to whittle you out of the draw. Because that is essentially what is happening here. You're trying to whittle me out of a three way draw to create a two way draw while Sabi is pushing for a solo.

I am going to reward the soloist every single time unless the whittler relents in every single game I play. Take the "three way draw I am a part of" aka N6 or watch these two votes sentence you to a loss to a solo, because your dream of a two way draw is simply never going to happen while the third person still maintains any semblance of agency.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4408 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:48 pm

Can confirm, boatman conceded a solo because I took back Bulgaria that was rightfully mine.

🙃

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4409 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:49 pm

Didn't really punish me because it was my only game in the tournament tho lol

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4410 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:07 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:04 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:16 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:21 am


Oh but Bozo my friend, I know if I intentionally stall all the way until the end you will probably convince Sabi to vote for me in the expectation of late shenanigans.

Your argument won't make any sense given that Sabi would be no worse off if I never hammer as the option for both of you point your guns at me in the night still exists if I switch to no kill while the possibility Sabi wins and that I just fell asleep the moment I got back home (where I would actually have wifi) is pretty high given it would be around 2:30-3am when I get back and my vote would stay on you without change. (Reminder that despite setting an alarm for 4:20am I woke up and immediately fell back asleep within a minute and slept through EON)

That being said, you're incredibly persuasive, there will be a large patch of time I can't respond, and this is Sabi's first time in a forum mafia where their decision could win or lose them the game on the spot. If you do not hammer no kill I, just like brainbomb would, will hammer you to make sure the leverage to kill at least one mafia team isn't taken out of my hands. Because if you're not willing to go to the night despite knowing you will lose otherwise, I'm not going to risk you weaseling your way into a draw if I can't stay up to 4:30 am.

You can ask Sabi, I have absolutely no problem punishing bad play when push comes to shove, and have thrown solos to do so. And make no mistake, I will punish you if I don't see you hammering no kill around 38 hours from now.
I have never thrown a solo in a diplomacy game. I consider losing to a solo the worse possible outcome in a diplomacy game, so if I am headed for elimination, I do whatever I can to prevent a solo while I am still in the game. Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
This entire post is just two non-sequiturs lmao, but I'll engage with the ridiculous conclusions anyways, because why not.
Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.
Losing to a "draw" is a loss. Losing to a mafia win is a loss. They are both losses that are indistinguishable from one another. This is just silly. Honestly this so called 1-1 draw or tie is really a 0-0-0 where no one wins and everyone is dead and that's how it ought to be treated, but sadly I don't write the rules. Given that they're indistinguishable, I choose to play kingmaker and reward the party that played the game to win.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
Actually, much like Jon Snow, you know nothing, bozo. You have no way of having any certainty as to whether Sabi would kill me or you in N6. Sabi having their vote on you just means they intend to take the win I intend to hand them unless given a reason to do otherwise.

Regardless, bozo, given that you know I have thrown solos to punish bad players, you really should re-examine your confidence in my behavior and focus on what I would do given that knowledge and less on what you would do, given that apparently you will never throw a solo even as your opponent tries to whittle you out of the draw. Because that is essentially what is happening here. You're trying to whittle me out of a three way draw to create a two way draw while Sabi is pushing for a solo.

I am going to reward the soloist every single time unless the whittler relents in every single game I play. Take the "three way draw I am a part of" aka N6 or watch these two votes sentence you to a loss to a solo, because your dream of a two way draw is simply never going to happen while the third person still maintains any semblance of agency.
I would be OK with a 3 way draw, but apparently that is not an option.

I agree that technically both losses are "indistinguishable from one another", but you are the one who said you would rather lose to one team. However, my preference in the same situation would be different.

BesharamSabi played a good game, but they are voting for me now because you said you would vote for me, not because they are "pushing for a solo".

I am not confident in what you will do, but I think what you are doing is trying to make it through D6 without BesharamSabi voting for you by promising to hammering me at some point. If you are successful, you will win, because I will NK BesharamSabi N6 if you pull it off. What I will not do is change my vote D6.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4411 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:13 pm

bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:07 pm
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:04 am
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:16 am


I have never thrown a solo in a diplomacy game. I consider losing to a solo the worse possible outcome in a diplomacy game, so if I am headed for elimination, I do whatever I can to prevent a solo while I am still in the game. Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
This entire post is just two non-sequiturs lmao, but I'll engage with the ridiculous conclusions anyways, because why not.
Therefore, I do not agree that killing one mafia team and losing to the other is a better result for town than losing to a draw.
Losing to a "draw" is a loss. Losing to a mafia win is a loss. They are both losses that are indistinguishable from one another. This is just silly. Honestly this so called 1-1 draw or tie is really a 0-0-0 where no one wins and everyone is dead and that's how it ought to be treated, but sadly I don't write the rules. Given that they're indistinguishable, I choose to play kingmaker and reward the party that played the game to win.

I know I will lose if I go into N6, because I know the only way that will happen is if BesharamSabi plans to NK me. However, I do not know for sure I will lose if I refuse to hammer no-kill, I won't know that for sure until you hammer me.
Actually, much like Jon Snow, you know nothing, bozo. You have no way of having any certainty as to whether Sabi would kill me or you in N6. Sabi having their vote on you just means they intend to take the win I intend to hand them unless given a reason to do otherwise.

Regardless, bozo, given that you know I have thrown solos to punish bad players, you really should re-examine your confidence in my behavior and focus on what I would do given that knowledge and less on what you would do, given that apparently you will never throw a solo even as your opponent tries to whittle you out of the draw. Because that is essentially what is happening here. You're trying to whittle me out of a three way draw to create a two way draw while Sabi is pushing for a solo.

I am going to reward the soloist every single time unless the whittler relents in every single game I play. Take the "three way draw I am a part of" aka N6 or watch these two votes sentence you to a loss to a solo, because your dream of a two way draw is simply never going to happen while the third person still maintains any semblance of agency.
I would be OK with a 3 way draw, but apparently that is not an option.

I agree that technically both losses are "indistinguishable from one another", but you are the one who said you would rather lose to one team. However, my preference in the same situation would be different.

BesharamSabi played a good game, but they are voting for me now because you said you would vote for me, not because they are "pushing for a solo".

I am not confident in what you will do, but I think what you are doing is trying to make it through D6 without BesharamSabi voting for you by promising to hammering me at some point. If you are successful, you will win, because I will NK BesharamSabi N6 if you pull it off. What I will not do is change my vote D6.
I have been pushing for a solo. I very much thought damo was scum. I asked for extension for the sole reason I could argue I'm not scum to brainbomb on this day. I have been scum hunting and playing for the solo this whole time. Damo to me was a supposed scum kill and not a miskill.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4412 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:14 pm

BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:48 pm
Can confirm, boatman conceded a solo because I took back Bulgaria that was rightfully mine.

🙃
At what point will you conclude that TFB is just trying to get to N6 so that town wins?

##END

Now you can end the game if/when you conclude TFB is not going to hammer me.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4413 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:15 pm

So all I'm getting is that you played for the draw since you knew damo was a miskill/town.

I was playing for the solo because I voted damo because i thought he was scum.

There's a difference bozo.

My scum chat can verify all this when the game is over.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4414 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:16 pm

BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:13 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:07 pm
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:04 am


This entire post is just two non-sequiturs lmao, but I'll engage with the ridiculous conclusions anyways, because why not.



Losing to a "draw" is a loss. Losing to a mafia win is a loss. They are both losses that are indistinguishable from one another. This is just silly. Honestly this so called 1-1 draw or tie is really a 0-0-0 where no one wins and everyone is dead and that's how it ought to be treated, but sadly I don't write the rules. Given that they're indistinguishable, I choose to play kingmaker and reward the party that played the game to win.




Actually, much like Jon Snow, you know nothing, bozo. You have no way of having any certainty as to whether Sabi would kill me or you in N6. Sabi having their vote on you just means they intend to take the win I intend to hand them unless given a reason to do otherwise.

Regardless, bozo, given that you know I have thrown solos to punish bad players, you really should re-examine your confidence in my behavior and focus on what I would do given that knowledge and less on what you would do, given that apparently you will never throw a solo even as your opponent tries to whittle you out of the draw. Because that is essentially what is happening here. You're trying to whittle me out of a three way draw to create a two way draw while Sabi is pushing for a solo.

I am going to reward the soloist every single time unless the whittler relents in every single game I play. Take the "three way draw I am a part of" aka N6 or watch these two votes sentence you to a loss to a solo, because your dream of a two way draw is simply never going to happen while the third person still maintains any semblance of agency.
I would be OK with a 3 way draw, but apparently that is not an option.

I agree that technically both losses are "indistinguishable from one another", but you are the one who said you would rather lose to one team. However, my preference in the same situation would be different.

BesharamSabi played a good game, but they are voting for me now because you said you would vote for me, not because they are "pushing for a solo".

I am not confident in what you will do, but I think what you are doing is trying to make it through D6 without BesharamSabi voting for you by promising to hammering me at some point. If you are successful, you will win, because I will NK BesharamSabi N6 if you pull it off. What I will not do is change my vote D6.
I have been pushing for a solo. I very much thought damo was scum. I asked for extension for the sole reason I could argue I'm not scum to brainbomb on this day. I have been scum hunting and playing for the solo this whole time. Damo to me was a supposed scum kill and not a miskill.
I was not saying you were not playing to win, I just meant D6 you have not been arguing to go to N6 to go for a solo as opposed to taking a draw. Is that your position?

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4415 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:26 pm

BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:15 pm
So all I'm getting is that you played for the draw since you knew damo was a miskill/town.

I was playing for the solo because I voted damo because i thought he was scum.

There's a difference bozo.

My scum chat can verify all this when the game is over.
Besides considering trying to get you DKed over me D5 a futile effort, I was under pressure D5, so if I attempted it, I think I would have been the DK. Yes, there is a difference, but I dispute TFB's characterization of that as "bad play".

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4416 Post by bozotheclown » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:32 pm

bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:26 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:15 pm
So all I'm getting is that you played for the draw since you knew damo was a miskill/town.

I was playing for the solo because I voted damo because i thought he was scum.

There's a difference bozo.

My scum chat can verify all this when the game is over.
Besides considering trying to get you DKed over me D5 a futile effort, I was under pressure D5, so if I attempted it, I think I would have been the DK. Yes, there is a difference, but I dispute TFB's characterization of that as "bad play".
If I was 100% certain you were the last mafia, I may have tried it anyway, but I thought either brainbomb or damo was still possible, so I think going for the best chance at a mis-kill was the right choice.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4417 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:45 pm

bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:14 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:48 pm
Can confirm, boatman conceded a solo because I took back Bulgaria that was rightfully mine.

🙃
At what point will you conclude that TFB is just trying to get to N6 so that town wins?

##END

Now you can end the game if/when you conclude TFB is not going to hammer me.

Oooh you're making this game of chicken more fun. I already gave my timeline. I'll wait until then so you can realize just how deadly serious I am. I promise you my hammer will drop on you then if you don't hammer no kill. My timeline will not budge for anyone or anything. Until then feel free to play whatever theater you like.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4418 Post by BesharamSabi » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:50 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:45 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:14 pm
BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:48 pm
Can confirm, boatman conceded a solo because I took back Bulgaria that was rightfully mine.

🙃
At what point will you conclude that TFB is just trying to get to N6 so that town wins?

##END

Now you can end the game if/when you conclude TFB is not going to hammer me.

Oooh you're making this game of chicken more fun. I already gave my timeline. I'll wait until then so you can realize just how deadly serious I am. I promise you my hammer will drop on you then if you don't hammer no kill. My timeline will not budge for anyone or anything. Until then feel free to play whatever theater you like.
If his vote is still on you then what?

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4419 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:02 pm

Ministry of Vote Counts:

bozotheclown (2) - BesharamSabi(END), TheFlyingBoat
TheFlyingBoat (1) - bozotheclown(END)

Just under 30 hours remains in Day 6.
2
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#4420 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:14 pm

BesharamSabi wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:50 pm
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:45 pm
bozotheclown wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:14 pm


At what point will you conclude that TFB is just trying to get to N6 so that town wins?

##END

Now you can end the game if/when you conclude TFB is not going to hammer me.

Oooh you're making this game of chicken more fun. I already gave my timeline. I'll wait until then so you can realize just how deadly serious I am. I promise you my hammer will drop on you then if you don't hammer no kill. My timeline will not budge for anyone or anything. Until then feel free to play whatever theater you like.
If his vote is still on you then what?
If his vote is still on me by the time I get back from dropping my cousin off at Indira Gandhi Airport (some time around 2:30 AM IST/1 pm Pacific) I am casting my end vote to hammer him and then immediately going to bed, happy and free from this game. If you don't see me cast my end vote by 3:00 AM IST, feel free to vote for me if that's what you feel you need to do.

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