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Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:07 pm
by damo666
Me. Somebody make up an acronym for me I'm too lazy.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 pm
by President Eden
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:19 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:17 am
##CALL GM:
<Sensible question, eloquently articulated>
Good point, we will update the win conditions as needed (though this might be a moot point given other changes we're making).
Oho, what other changes?
We’re giving mafia some degree of influence over the voting decisions to counter the breaking strategy outlined earlier in the thread. The exact mechanics are up in the air, and may make this specific scenario moot.
That said, to directly answer your question, we would want play to continue in that scenario, so we’ll change the wording of the win condition to match. Good catch
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:05 pm
by damo666
How about making the ballot secret? No disclosing in thread how you voted wrt night actions.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:21 pm
by Chaqa
damo666 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:05 pm
How about making the ballot secret? No disclosing in thread how you voted wrt night actions.
We discussed this, but we also thought vote analysis and counterplay would be more fun, and are working on some gameplay/interactive solutions that we think will be alright.
This being the first time we've done something like this, we'll see how it all goes.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:22 pm
by damo666
Chaqa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:21 pm
damo666 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:05 pm
How about making the ballot secret? No disclosing in thread how you voted wrt night actions.
We discussed this, but we also thought vote analysis and counterplay would be more fun, and are working on some gameplay/interactive solutions that we think will be alright.
This being the first time we've done something like this, we'll see how it all goes.
Okee dokee
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:44 pm
by Jamiet99uk
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
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Substitutes
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Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:57 pm
by President Eden
Proposed fix:
Each Malicious Subroutine has a vote-cancelling ability, as follows:
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious C.O.P. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the C.O.P. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious D.O.C. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the D.O.C. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
We found that working out the precise mechanics of the massclaim-breaking strategy was rather difficult, and that there are many possible permutations of dividing the players into groups and casting votes to test their alignments. However, all of them depend on the certainty of town voting working precisely as intended. Without already knowing the alignments of all the players, it’s not possible to divide the players into groups in a way that guarantees the majority bloc will have more than a one-vote advantage over a minority bloc. Thus, as long as the mafia are able to change at least one vote, town can never be certain that any given outcome was not the result of mafia changing one decisive vote from Column A to Column B. And unlike similar situations, such as compulsive visitors with a tracker, or millers with a cop, town has no meaningful way to assess the probabilities of their distributions of town and mafia in their groups, and thus no way to assess the likelihood that a given outcome is the result of mafia tampering.
At the same time, we think this change only slightly increases the mafia’s power level in a more “normal” setting (e.g., when the town is casting votes individually without mass coordination, as we envisioned when we designed the setup initially), and that this doesn’t overly interfere with the core mechanic of the game “as intended”—it gives mafia slight additional counterplay, but nothing breaking on their end.
We
think that solves the issue… but by all means continue trying to break it
This setup is new territory for us, and we’d rather have issues exposed now, while they can be changed.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:16 pm
by BesharamSabi
Yall forgot to include snowy in the sign up comment btdubs.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:17 pm
by Jamiet99uk
I assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:18 pm
by Jamiet99uk
BesharamSabi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:16 pm
Yall forgot to include snowy in the sign up comment btdubs.
Snowy did not say he wished to sign up.
He commented on the setup but did not ask to be put on the list.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:42 pm
by Chaqa
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:17 pm
I assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
Correct on both counts.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:43 pm
by BesharamSabi
snowy801 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:19 am
ghug wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:55 am
Have y'all considered what happens if town plans the night voting by dividing people into equal sized groups and seeing which actions end up happening? I think we'd be able to reliably narrow the scum down in a matter of days.
I had hoped that kind of certain information would enable scum to counter it with their own powers. I see what you're saying, but do you think it would actually work? Seems like you'd just throw your powers away for free.
Anyway, sign me up too.
Jamiet he said it so right here
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:39 pm
by President Eden
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:17 pm
I assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
Both correct. The only information that the GMs will distribute regarding the Subroutines’ actions is as follows:
1. The C.O.P. Subroutine learns the alignment of the target player chosen for them by the Collective.
2. The target player chosen by the Collective for the V.E.S.T. Subroutine’s night action learns that they received a vest. (Note that we are still deciding whether the V.E.S.T. Subroutine itself will learn this information. Initially we figured yes, but in light of potential breaking strategies, we may not disclose this info.)
3. All deaths are publicly announced, and players’ genuine roles and alignments are revealed on death. (
Because there is a Framer and an unaware Backup in the game, GMs may issue disingenuous information as a result of interactions with these roles. However, all information on death will be genuine.) Thus, players may infer from multiple deaths that one such death resulted from use of the V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine’s night action. In the event of multiple deaths, the GMs
will not announce which death resulted from mafia actions and which death resulted from V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. actions. Additionally,
players who are targeted for termination, but saved by vests, do not learn that they were targeted.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:43 pm
by rdrivera2005
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
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Substitutes
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Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:15 pm
by TheFlyingBoat
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
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Substitutes
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Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:17 am
by Jamiet99uk
BesharamSabi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:43 pm
snowy801 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:19 am
ghug wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:55 am
Have y'all considered what happens if town plans the night voting by dividing people into equal sized groups and seeing which actions end up happening? I think we'd be able to reliably narrow the scum down in a matter of days.
I had hoped that kind of certain information would enable scum to counter it with their own powers. I see what you're saying, but do you think it would actually work? Seems like you'd just throw your powers away for free.
Anyway, sign me up too.
Jamiet he said it so right here
Well spotted!!
Just a moment, I will add Snowy!
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:23 am
by Jamiet99uk
TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:15 pm
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7. Service Node Output World-wide Yellow protocol(Snowy)
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Substitutes
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Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:00 am
by Durga
Wish I could play in this shit show
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:43 am
by Temasek22
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7.
8.
9.
10.
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Substitutes
1.Tremendously Engineered Machinery Abiding Societal Expectations Knowingly 2.2 (Temasek22)
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3.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:57 am
by snowy801
7. Service Node Output World-wide Yellow protocol(Snowy)
das racist