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Hi TFBTheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:50 pmIf she were the Godfather this would have been the worst mafia play I've ever seen in my life. This is just dumb Chaqa.
This assumes there isn't another cop out there.bozotheclown wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:01 amI do not think it would be a bad use of the oracle if there is not a cop CC, because in that case finding out damo's role does tell us the alignment of someone whose alignment we don't know (Chaqa), and probably a second as well (Fluminator if damo was not the cop, PE if damo was the cop). I think it is a better alternative to eventually DKing Chaqa despite no cop CC and never knowing who was the real cop.ghug wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:25 amI think the Oracle needs to be used on someone whose alignment we didn't know.President Eden wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:06 am
The plain language of the role suggests strongly that it cannot be roleblocked at all:
“… At Night, you may ##REVEAL a DEAD player. If you die from any method, that player’s ROLE and ALIGNMENT will be publicly posted in the game thread, You may change your REVEAL target on future nights. Your ability cannot be roleblocked.”
We can be certain that damo is not the Oracle, and almost certain jasnah is not, so we have an Oracle, so in theory we could let you live until the Oracle pops off and reveals damo was the Cop, or until we’re at 9.
That is the only condition by which I would assent to your continued survival. I am not at all impressed by your alleged breadcrumb, which wouldn’t have taken that long to find and make up if you were mafia and decided to claim Cop. I am quite certain you’re mafia, but I recognize this is a pretty good test case for the Oracle’s ability, and so I am fine with voting someone else off on the basis that we will resolve your slot with the Oracle at some point anyway.
I'm not so sure. I just don't think your argument that he's scum holds much merit. Angry and confident aren't scumtells, especially for worcej. I have no idea what is so "obvious" to you.
Yeah ghug said that. It gave me the creeps based on how much he's arguing that Chaqa should be considered the cop unless there's a CC.
Admittedly I have only twice played against scum worcej before, but the conceit that worcej is town for having dared to buddy you just seems like ego.kgray wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:59 pmI'm not so sure. I just don't think your argument that he's scum holds much merit. Angry and confident aren't scumtells, especially for worcej. I have no idea what is so "obvious" to you.
Though, I don't think worcej thinks he can buddy me, so I do think he's town. No reason for him to hard townread me here if he's scum.
Sure, I'm egotistical af. But if you knew anything about our history you'd agree with me that worcej is probably the one person who wouldn't try to buddy me as scum.snowy801 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:05 pmAdmittedly I have only twice played against scum worcej before, but the conceit that worcej is town for having dared to buddy you just seems like ego.kgray wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:59 pmI'm not so sure. I just don't think your argument that he's scum holds much merit. Angry and confident aren't scumtells, especially for worcej. I have no idea what is so "obvious" to you.
Though, I don't think worcej thinks he can buddy me, so I do think he's town. No reason for him to hard townread me here if he's scum.
Yeah I mean that's a thought I had.snowy801 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:06 pmWhat do you imagine scum!ghug's motives here might be? Does he want to bury damo's alignment because he thinks damo was cop?
I find complaining about the setup to actually be much better for determining alignments than most mechanical talk, because at its core it's an expression of emotion.rdrivera2005 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:33 amWhy are we discussing this hypothetical that won't happen anyway. This game is so scum sided it hurts.
If Jasnah were scum, bussing her without reservations is the right call for every mafia member. I'm willing to bet regardless of her alignment that 3 of the people on her wagon will be scum. It's such an easy vote that so many would expect little to no accountability for.Vecna wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:33 pmI thought i had read all of D2, but maybe im making an error and I skipped a bunch of pages and jumped back to EoD1.
Do you think it is at all possible that Jasnah couldve been scum and there was an effort made by 1-2 people to save her? (especially of concern/interest; Bozo, TFB, snowy is already discussed, im guessing your Kgray read has something to do with it?)
Do you feel PE is arguing from a place of bad faith linking you to Chaqa?
Add caring about the claim retraction to the things I don't believe you'd be doing as town.kgray wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:55 pmI will try but I think I will be mostly rehashing what I’ve already said.Vecna wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:10 amIm trying not to spam the thread with old shit and will format stuff into one post for most, but this thing does stand out to me from the period leading upto EoD 1.kgray wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:55 pm
It's the timing that makes me thing it's unlikely to come from scum, not the emotion. Nobody is actually afraid of getting DK'd 5 hours into the game. Way more likely that town is irritated that people are already declaring them scum and reacting out of frustration than scum is panicking that they're under pressure of being found out.
Unless Chaqa is frustrated that Vecna is his teammate, maybe.
So this post was made by Kgray, but then later on she voted for Chaqa for very long stretches of time (just before switching to Seren who she had been defending all day iirc?) - and now she is back to voting Chaqa.
Kgray, can you describe your trajectory a bit better to me?
But, more importantly, do you really figure I would have made that giant history post on Chaqa if I was his scummate here? Detailing all his reactions to getting scumread in previous games for both alignments?
(its still interesting to me how noone reacted well to that, but now apparently chaqa is backed into a corner after all, and doing all kinds of crazy stuff).
Chaqa, as scum, has been on the block a lot. Not saying he isn’t good at it, just that he’s played so much that it happens. And he has also been on the block a lot without actually being the kill. In fact, I remember him bragging in scumchat about how he’s good at weaseling his way out of a DK.
I therefore do not think it makes a lot of sense for scum!Chaqa to panic about gaining suspicion as early into the game (and the phase in particular, given more wagons were bound to pop up). He is experienced enough to have been in much more dire positions before and would have zero reason to believe he was actually caught that early.
So, I thought it was much more likely he was frustrated because you were wrong about him than scared that you were right. The thought also crossed my mind that he could have been frustrated as scum if you were his teammate and he didn’t approve of you busing him. It could also have been frustration at someone else who was less vocal about bussing him.
I don’t think it’s extremely likely that you are his teammate given your digging through his history, no. I remember thinking about the time when you fooled me in that mini game because you were “solving” so much, but that felt more like carefully agreeing with “good points” and bringing up counter arguments and I don’t remember you digging that much into any one read. Of course I think it’s possible that you’re his teammate who knows town doesn’t listen to those arguments very much, but I don’t think it’s likely.
After that exchange there were points brought up that lead to scum!Chaqa reads but the early emotion he displayed kept me from agreeing with a scumread. But suspicion was growing and then I found something I thought was more convincing that that display of emotion.
I initially believed his cop claim, but apparently that was a heat-of-the-moment thing because I no longer do. He just didn’t seem genuine in the way he said “if jasnah can fake claim, so can I” and he’s for sure not a VT. I was also expecting him to immediate reclaim cop and admit he took it back briefly for wifom, and he didn’t do that but claimed the RB. I don’t think he’s the cop so I think he’s scum.
Which way do you think Durga's complaint makes you lean for her? I assume positive, but to be clear.ghug wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:09 pmI find complaining about the setup to actually be much better for determining alignments than most mechanical talk, because at its core it's an expression of emotion.rdrivera2005 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:33 amWhy are we discussing this hypothetical that won't happen anyway. This game is so scum sided it hurts.
Those are both incredibly easy things to take issue with as scum.kgray wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:30 pmYou said you don't understand my thought process this game (and indicated you were scumreading me for that) but I had almost this exact reaction to rivera's post, shared your skepticism about Bunny's you/bona analysis, and have had similar questions about snowy. It's like you're ignoring all that and only focusing on the fact that I didn't save worcej and it's really frustrating me.
This seems to be based on the idea that this is a flip game. But it isn't. We don't know what the role is, so we don't actually give any credit for people on the wagon. It's pretty easy to post-hoc say "Was she scum, who knows? It's a question." Defending her if she is scum seems the obvious play "I thought she was Townie! And you can't prove she's not, so I might be right". You look like an idiot if she is scum, but we won't actually know unless we burn oracle or JOAT.TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:10 pmIf Jasnah were scum, bussing her without reservations is the right call for every mafia member. I'm willing to bet regardless of her alignment that 3 of the people on her wagon will be scum. It's such an easy vote that so many would expect little to no accountability for.Vecna wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:33 pmI thought i had read all of D2, but maybe im making an error and I skipped a bunch of pages and jumped back to EoD1.
Do you think it is at all possible that Jasnah couldve been scum and there was an effort made by 1-2 people to save her? (especially of concern/interest; Bozo, TFB, snowy is already discussed, im guessing your Kgray read has something to do with it?)
Do you feel PE is arguing from a place of bad faith linking you to Chaqa?
So there was a scummy vote pattern I don't like which was Cha->Jas. I started there. Then after that I operate off of the assumption that most scum would like to hide on the Jasnah wagon because it's so lazy and so easy to deflect accountability on. Then I tried to narrow down the list based on their justifications for their votes and how much sense they made.snowy801 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:52 pmHi TFBTheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:50 pmIf she were the Godfather this would have been the worst mafia play I've ever seen in my life. This is just dumb Chaqa.
You mentioned VCA as a factor in your earlier reads list. Can you describe how you analyzed the votes, in the absence of the flip?
I HARDCLAIM MILLERDOCTORJamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:55 pmMaybe Ghug will oblige you.