M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

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Bonatogether
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1561 Post by Bonatogether » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:20 am

kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:04 am
Bonatogether wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:58 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:55 am


Alright bona, I don't have the energy for this.
Perhaps you can answer tomorrow?
I mean I literally don't know what you want me to say. You keep repeating the same questions back at me, you're not interested in my answers. You just want me to say 'yeah kill me, i'm just a townie and happy to take one for the team' but I'm literally never going to do that in any scenario.

It's nonsensical because it's just picking from a pool of people based on perceived skill level which is more subjective even than reads because of people's egos.

It's bad if it targets me because I'm town and people should be able to figure that out so wasting a kill on me is bad.

It's objectively bad in general no matter who the target is because it's basing kills on something other than reads and this game, which is easy for scum to hide behind and not the way the game should be played.

If you wanna scumread me for whatever else, fine. But keep this garbage out of your argument because my response here is just that I think this is dumb and that's incredibly NAI.
See, this is what I wanted.

If you're town I'm having issues seeing it at the moment.

Maybe if there's a lot of people behind it? Right now there's only a few people who have said they like it, and most of them have given a reason for it that people can go and look at and figure out if it's scummy or not.

I don't think it's NAI.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1562 Post by ghug » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:20 am

President Eden wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 am
Okay Eden, here's a list of the reasons I found that you gave this evening that caused you to scumread Durga and my reaction to them:

1) She's had too many "I know what's going on" posts: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 04#p257604
- You give no indication of what those posts are besides the one about jasnah, and besides, I fail to see why anybody thinks scum would immediately call out a PR as fake claiming for any reason besides to CC them.

2) She's more reactive than normal: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 64#p257664
- I don't think she's more reactive than normal, and even if she were I'd think that makes her more towny. She hides as scum.

You then "clarified" and stated the following: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 06#p257806 consisting of two arguments

3) Durga's reaction indicated to you that Durga knows jasnah is both town and fake claiming.
- What possible way could this be true besides the one damo would be talking about?

4) You suggest Durga believed both jasnah and Bunny to be town very quickly, leading you to conclude she must know they're both town because she's mafia.
- I fail to see where Durga immediately believed Bunny was town, as evidenced by *you* nudging her to move her vote.

When I commented on this, you retracted (or flip-flopped, as one might say) here: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 38#p257838 which leads me to

5) You suggest that she still scumread Bunny because she's mafia who is incapable of evolving her reads
- This isn't only blatantly a flip-flop, it's also literally a forced read because you say 'either way there's reason to think she's mafia' and thereby you're forcing your scumread of her on every scenario.

So if you're town, please stop whining about me having 'bad faith' questions when you're clearly doing exactly what I'm saying you're doing.
You are still plainly oversimplifying and inserting your own narrative all over this post instead of engaging me like somebody who is actually looking to understand. Given how fruitless my repeated efforts to explain have been, I am not going to waste anymore time arguing with you, particularly since it’s reasonably likely you are just mafia stirring the pot, judging from the lack of ultimate direction to any of your pointless nitpicking.

If my townreads want further answers then I’m happy to give them but I consider this matter resolved.
You missed an A+ webDip meme opportunity here.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1563 Post by worcej » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:21 am

kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:05 am
worcej wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:58 am
The votes on me are awful :sick:
Yeah, actually.
TFB actually had an explanation, but it doesn't make sense - just because I put an end vote on someone doesn't make me explicitly scummy when numerous others have already done that.
Snowy's had no explanation at the time.
Durga sheeped Snowy. Of note, few of her votes seem to have conviction behind them...
Chaqa's reasoning was made awhile ago, but then does it when suggestion a 50/50 or no kill. dafuq?
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1564 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:21 am

kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:59 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:50 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:46 am
I want to know why theflyingboat decided to encourage bona starting my wagon when he's got scumreads and I'm not one of them. And I don't want to hear anything about it being because I'm 'strong scum' because he said that in response to an actual case bona was making on me and not to worcej and damo's earlier nonsense.
My response to bona's post in question:

"This is actually interesting I am still leaning Flum, but that kill strong scum in an NR game does seem somewhat reasonable to me as well."

Literally I never touched the substance of the case against you AT ALL. The only part of it I said seemed reasonable was the KILL STRONG SCUM part. You can say you don't want to hear it all you want, but that's literally the only part of the post I even touched. This attempt to deflect onto me is incredibly weird though. You'll note despite me "encouraging" a wagon on you that my vote is on worcej who I mentioned having a negative read on and I explicitly mentioned Flum as someone I wanted targeted more.
Yes, I realize you never touched the substance of the case against me, and yet your post encouraged bona to continue voting me. That's what I initially found sus. Now it's also because you avoided the question twice.

I'm not deflecting anything. What do you find weird?

Having a paper trail is something scum worry about a lot, so you focusing on that doesn't really make me townread you.
I didn't avoid the question. I simply rejected the premise. I said I think killing strong scum is a reasonable strategy. I think killing players that do not slip up often as scum is a reasonable strategy in a non-flip game in early days because they make for good targets when we have less to go on as if we get lucky and hit one in our first couple guesses we'll find ourselves in a situation where we have a weaker mafia to hunt down and will more easily be able to get good reads. I did not encourage him to target you in that post because of his case but rather commented in support for the strategy of targeting people on that list he created and said from that perspective, and that perspective alone, that it made reasonable sense, even though I preferred to vote for my actual reads.

Now I am not familiar enough with everyone to argue whether the list is a good one, but as a strategy I think it makes sense from a theoretical perspective. Now you may not like that my style in early days when I can tryhard is somewhat theoretical and focused on mechs until more reads come in (which I did comment on and vote on), but you can hardly deny that it is on flavor given your previous criticism of my eye-glazing posts.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1565 Post by ghug » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 am

Chaqa wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:45 am
Ghug, can you elaborate on your “what?”

I thought I was clear? I would want to vote out both of the hard claimers if not for the fact there is an Oracle. It makes it easier to solve without doing the 50/50
Ok that makes sense.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1566 Post by BesharamSabi » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 am

I'm going to bed. Be up in seven hours. Don't burn anyone at the stake while I'm gone.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1567 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 am

kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:07 am
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:57 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:38 am


How would scum!Durga immediately know jasnah was fake claiming?

The only scenario where that is possible is that they're teammates. And in that case, in what world does Durga immediately react like that in a way that doesn't even get her towncread for bussing jasnah?
She would know that I wasn't scum and counter-claiming; which I'd never do as VT.
Sorry? I don't understand what that has to do with why scum!Durga would immediately call out jasnah as fake claiming.
You asked how scum!Durga would know which of us was fake (assuming that Jasnah is town)? The answer is:

1) Scum!Durga knows neither of us is scum
2) Scum!Durga knows I'd never fake a CC as town
ergo
3)Scum!Durga instantly knows which of us is faking it.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1568 Post by President Eden » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:23 am

ghug wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:20 am
President Eden wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 am
Okay Eden, here's a list of the reasons I found that you gave this evening that caused you to scumread Durga and my reaction to them:

1) She's had too many "I know what's going on" posts: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 04#p257604
- You give no indication of what those posts are besides the one about jasnah, and besides, I fail to see why anybody thinks scum would immediately call out a PR as fake claiming for any reason besides to CC them.

2) She's more reactive than normal: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 64#p257664
- I don't think she's more reactive than normal, and even if she were I'd think that makes her more towny. She hides as scum.

You then "clarified" and stated the following: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 06#p257806 consisting of two arguments

3) Durga's reaction indicated to you that Durga knows jasnah is both town and fake claiming.
- What possible way could this be true besides the one damo would be talking about?

4) You suggest Durga believed both jasnah and Bunny to be town very quickly, leading you to conclude she must know they're both town because she's mafia.
- I fail to see where Durga immediately believed Bunny was town, as evidenced by *you* nudging her to move her vote.

When I commented on this, you retracted (or flip-flopped, as one might say) here: http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/ ... 38#p257838 which leads me to

5) You suggest that she still scumread Bunny because she's mafia who is incapable of evolving her reads
- This isn't only blatantly a flip-flop, it's also literally a forced read because you say 'either way there's reason to think she's mafia' and thereby you're forcing your scumread of her on every scenario.

So if you're town, please stop whining about me having 'bad faith' questions when you're clearly doing exactly what I'm saying you're doing.
You are still plainly oversimplifying and inserting your own narrative all over this post instead of engaging me like somebody who is actually looking to understand. Given how fruitless my repeated efforts to explain have been, I am not going to waste anymore time arguing with you, particularly since it’s reasonably likely you are just mafia stirring the pot, judging from the lack of ultimate direction to any of your pointless nitpicking.

If my townreads want further answers then I’m happy to give them but I consider this matter resolved.
You missed an A+ webDip meme opportunity here.
Fuck me I did :cry: that's an ancient one and so on point. Dammit. Pretend I said it :lol:
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1569 Post by ghug » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:23 am

worcej wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:58 am
me are awful :sick:
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1570 Post by snowy801 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:24 am

President Eden wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:23 am
Fuck me I did :cry: that's an ancient one and so on point. Dammit. Pretend I said it :lol:
What would it have been?
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1571 Post by ghug » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:26 am

ghug wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:18 am
Chaqa wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:35 am
ghug wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:32 am


What
?
I don't understand what this means.
Yeah my first order issue was that I parsed it as [The only reason I’m not pushing to 50/50 jasnah] [and Bunny is the Oracle.] and couldn't tell what the fuck you were saying.

The second order issue is that you shouldn't be pushing that 50/50 anyway.

The third is why worcej?
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1572 Post by kgray » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:26 am

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:15 am

Not patronizing, kgray. But you've seemed not your usual clear and understandable self. Mostly you seem agitated and on edge. I'm literally trying to understand where you're coming from and what's causing it. I don't think it's scum indicative yet, because you don't do this as scum (except as theatre). But you also don't do it as town. At least not when I was last here.

I think Eden is one of my stronger town reads. I think his arguments make a lot more sense and are fairly clearly explained and reasoned. I think they show no indication of knowing the answer, nor leading himself to find the answer he wants.

That said, I'm not moving my vote today. Not even if jasnah hardclaims PR. So I have time to reconsider everything and just chill.
Okay. It's pretty rough when I feel like Bunny is my voice of reason.

Yeah I guess I'm agitated. Part of that is just life, part of that is the pointless arguments in this game that get me worked up. It's been like a day and I'm already drained.

I've read through Eden's push on Durga twice and I stand behind my assessment, but I thought he was towny earlier so idk. He should stop voting for me just because he's bad at engaging with people when they question him, though.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1573 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:26 am

worcej wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:21 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:05 am
worcej wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:58 am
The votes on me are awful :sick:
Yeah, actually.
TFB actually had an explanation, but it doesn't make sense - just because I put an end vote on someone doesn't make me explicitly scummy when numerous others have already done that.
Snowy's had no explanation at the time.
Durga sheeped Snowy. Of note, few of her votes seem to have conviction behind them...
Chaqa's reasoning was made awhile ago, but then does it when suggestion a 50/50 or no kill. dafuq?
I think I clarified that putting an end vote in and of itself doesn't make it seem scummy to me. It is the fact that it was in a situation that could pretty quickly result in a hammer that seemed suspect to me. No other end happened in such a scenario besides Bunny's which I thought was sus as well at the time, but after coming to the conclusion he was the miller, I ruled out the possibility of him being scum for now. Fluminator is definitely my biggest scum read right now, but I have seen no will from anyone to pursue a wagon on him. Right now I view it as three way race between you, jasnah, and Bunny and I have incredibly strong town reads on both of the latter two.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1574 Post by President Eden » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:27 am

snowy801 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:24 am
President Eden wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:23 am
Fuck me I did :cry: that's an ancient one and so on point. Dammit. Pretend I said it :lol:
What would it have been?
A zultar classic:

"I'm sorry you don't understand, but given our past interactions, I suspect you don't actually care and are just looking to waste my time. This conversation is considered resolved."

It's a bit over the top here but still pretty funny
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1575 Post by kgray » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:28 am

ghug wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:18 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:36 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:36 am


I do feel weird lol I have just acted like my usual self and I'm getting sussed out.
Only by theflyingboat who is probably scum anyway since he can't answer a simple question.
Does that mean you think Durga's scum too?
Nah I only notice when people don't answer my questions. Present-day me, not future me.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1576 Post by President Eden » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:30 am

kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:26 am
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:15 am

Not patronizing, kgray. But you've seemed not your usual clear and understandable self. Mostly you seem agitated and on edge. I'm literally trying to understand where you're coming from and what's causing it. I don't think it's scum indicative yet, because you don't do this as scum (except as theatre). But you also don't do it as town. At least not when I was last here.

I think Eden is one of my stronger town reads. I think his arguments make a lot more sense and are fairly clearly explained and reasoned. I think they show no indication of knowing the answer, nor leading himself to find the answer he wants.

That said, I'm not moving my vote today. Not even if jasnah hardclaims PR. So I have time to reconsider everything and just chill.
Okay. It's pretty rough when I feel like Bunny is my voice of reason.

Yeah I guess I'm agitated. Part of that is just life, part of that is the pointless arguments in this game that get me worked up. It's been like a day and I'm already drained.

I've read through Eden's push on Durga twice and I stand behind my assessment, but I thought he was towny earlier so idk. He should stop voting for me just because he's bad at engaging with people when they question him, though.
Your 'questioning' consists of repeating the same overarching question, with a minor and ultimately irrelevant shift in which detail matters at the moment, all the while loading the questioning with needlessly aggressive word choice that clearly indicates you've already made up your mind and that further conversation is only setup bait to an accusation that dangles on the tip of your tongue, yet never comes. How many iterations of this do you expect a self-respecting person attempting to explain himself to undertake before he throws his hands up and moves on?
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1577 Post by kgray » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:31 am

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:21 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:59 am
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:50 am

My response to bona's post in question:

"This is actually interesting I am still leaning Flum, but that kill strong scum in an NR game does seem somewhat reasonable to me as well."

Literally I never touched the substance of the case against you AT ALL. The only part of it I said seemed reasonable was the KILL STRONG SCUM part. You can say you don't want to hear it all you want, but that's literally the only part of the post I even touched. This attempt to deflect onto me is incredibly weird though. You'll note despite me "encouraging" a wagon on you that my vote is on worcej who I mentioned having a negative read on and I explicitly mentioned Flum as someone I wanted targeted more.
Yes, I realize you never touched the substance of the case against me, and yet your post encouraged bona to continue voting me. That's what I initially found sus. Now it's also because you avoided the question twice.

I'm not deflecting anything. What do you find weird?

Having a paper trail is something scum worry about a lot, so you focusing on that doesn't really make me townread you.
I didn't avoid the question. I simply rejected the premise. I said I think killing strong scum is a reasonable strategy. I think killing players that do not slip up often as scum is a reasonable strategy in a non-flip game in early days because they make for good targets when we have less to go on as if we get lucky and hit one in our first couple guesses we'll find ourselves in a situation where we have a weaker mafia to hunt down and will more easily be able to get good reads. I did not encourage him to target you in that post because of his case but rather commented in support for the strategy of targeting people on that list he created and said from that perspective, and that perspective alone, that it made reasonable sense, even though I preferred to vote for my actual reads.

Now I am not familiar enough with everyone to argue whether the list is a good one, but as a strategy I think it makes sense from a theoretical perspective. Now you may not like that my style in early days when I can tryhard is somewhat theoretical and focused on mechs until more reads come in (which I did comment on and vote on), but you can hardly deny that it is on flavor given your previous criticism of my eye-glazing posts.
No I meant when you didn't answer it, not the response...

Whatever, never mind. I actually didn't think your posts were eye-glazing but it doesn't matter.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1578 Post by kgray » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:33 am

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:07 am
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:57 am


She would know that I wasn't scum and counter-claiming; which I'd never do as VT.
Sorry? I don't understand what that has to do with why scum!Durga would immediately call out jasnah as fake claiming.
You asked how scum!Durga would know which of us was fake (assuming that Jasnah is town)? The answer is:

1) Scum!Durga knows neither of us is scum
2) Scum!Durga knows I'd never fake a CC as town
ergo
3)Scum!Durga instantly knows which of us is faking it.
Oh, this happened after you CC'd. Missed that.
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1579 Post by President Eden » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:34 am

Anyway Sabi, snowy did a good job picking up where I left off:
BesharamSabi wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:34 am
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:32 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:28 am


Plausible but why do that which makes you obvious? It doesn't feel genuine to go straight to pitchforks, you know?
It is not completely clear to me what your perspective is. Are you saying that a true miller ought to have taken steps to ascertain whether their direct counterclaim is being serious about their claim, and that Bunny failed to do so is suspicious? In the sense that the true miller ought to have been more cautious and reluctant to immediately reveal their role?
Yes (I have been drinking but this makes sense to me).
There's no right or wrong answer here, this is a thought exercise to help you develop your perspective here for the benefit of those (including myself, but mostly other people) who would like to understand it better.

Suppose you were the Miller, not BG. When jasnah claimed, how do you imagine you might have approached jasnah's claim?
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Re: M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

#1580 Post by kgray » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:35 am

President Eden wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:30 am
kgray wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:26 am
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:15 am

Not patronizing, kgray. But you've seemed not your usual clear and understandable self. Mostly you seem agitated and on edge. I'm literally trying to understand where you're coming from and what's causing it. I don't think it's scum indicative yet, because you don't do this as scum (except as theatre). But you also don't do it as town. At least not when I was last here.

I think Eden is one of my stronger town reads. I think his arguments make a lot more sense and are fairly clearly explained and reasoned. I think they show no indication of knowing the answer, nor leading himself to find the answer he wants.

That said, I'm not moving my vote today. Not even if jasnah hardclaims PR. So I have time to reconsider everything and just chill.
Okay. It's pretty rough when I feel like Bunny is my voice of reason.

Yeah I guess I'm agitated. Part of that is just life, part of that is the pointless arguments in this game that get me worked up. It's been like a day and I'm already drained.

I've read through Eden's push on Durga twice and I stand behind my assessment, but I thought he was towny earlier so idk. He should stop voting for me just because he's bad at engaging with people when they question him, though.
Your 'questioning' consists of repeating the same overarching question, with a minor and ultimately irrelevant shift in which detail matters at the moment, all the while loading the questioning with needlessly aggressive word choice that clearly indicates you've already made up your mind and that further conversation is only setup bait to an accusation that dangles on the tip of your tongue, yet never comes. How many iterations of this do you expect a self-respecting person attempting to explain himself to undertake before he throws his hands up and moves on?
Dude I thought you weren't engaging with me anymore? Leave me the fuck alone.
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