Mini Mafia 1018 - Race with the Devil [hidden]

[Bonatogether]

Vecna ketchup wall – Its gotta be Heinz or the south African delicious gold stuff edition

I don't really have that many reads. Voting vecna for capital letters is not a good idea but other than that i don't have much.

make something up

Commented on it at the time, but this interaction is pretty interesting after an lfischl flip. Not sure how to interpret it, I remember as bona being quite crazy/fun that time he was scum.

<big snip of stuff that i should respond to>

since are you the one who's pushing back against townreads? usually you're doing something constructive

I find it interesting that you think I'm pushing back against townreads when I'm doing the exact opposite, pushing back against people's scumreads. I'm not confident in my own, but I'd like people to at least put forward good reasons for the wagons they are on. I was doing just that in 2 of the 4 posts you highlighted earlier.

Can you elaborate on what caught your eye because it feels like normal NAI ghug to me? Particularly given your later comment, why you think that Bona is likely to be ghug's teammate? Do you dislike a scum ghug/town Bona explanation?

I'm challenging Kak's ghug/bona scumread because I don't see it.

Why is it wierd? I'm just asking why he posts *SQUAWK*.

@worcej, coming from anyone besides lfischl I would agree with you, but my memory is that lfischl has asked a number of literal surface level questions before like this.

I'm contesting worcej's read on lfischl as weird because it strikes me as normal lfischl.

One of the other two posts you quoted was when I agreed that Bob's last posts at the time were weird. I stand by that statement though since then his posts have returned to a more normal Bob. I'm keeping an eye on him, but don't have a strong desire to kill him today. The last one was me challenging lfischl's ghug/Jamie connection. I suppose you could interpret this as pushing back against a townread, but I see no indication about whether lfischl sees them as more likely t/t or s/s.

This wall feels like a pretty big effort to defend a scum teammate. Makes it feel less likely that Celaph was lfischl’s teammate.

first part: excited bona got killed last game for this same reason and was town

second part: Isn't 'effort to defend a scum teammate' and 'less likely that celaph was lfischl's teammate' mutually exclusive? i'm confused

[Bonatogether]

Side note: I do find it rather notable that Bona was absent for the 80 minutes before EoD and then appeared rather quickly after the results were shared.

NAI imo - players usually (unless obscure time zone issues) check in on phase changes and make themselves available around that time.

Fair counterargument. Do you have an opinion on the fact that he didn't just check in, but also participated for the next 15 minutes? It bothers me a bit, but I still think your explanation covers it plenty.

celaph i have a history of doing this (I can remember doing it in the d2-n4 region in m61, and i think some other times)

[Bonatogether]

Side note: I do find it rather notable that Bona was absent for the 80 minutes before EoD and then appeared rather quickly after the results were shared.

OMGUS is a good look on celaph

@Bona, look at my emoji use!!!

now you've purposely changed your play from earlier and i dont like it

[Bonatogether]

what are your thoughts on celaph?
too scummy to be scum?

i dont believe town!celaph does that

I presume you're talking about my vote, but regardless, you're wrong. Do you want to elaborate why I wouldn't do that?

From a purely historic standpoint, scum!celaph made an earnest effort to appear town even up to his (almost but not) last seconds.

From a more behavioral standpoint, celaph as a person doesn't seem likely to go for that strategy - he's too calm and collected and analytical

[ghug]

I was of the opinion that he was excessively griefing and violating our code of conduct. He was being considered for a ban and was asked to recuse himself from playing and has been an issue since his membership on the council. my personal feeling is that Jamie is fun, and also very frustrating. He can be rude and when he devolves into profanity rants against the game it is to the detriment of the game and our community.
Lets not discuss this until post game, but suffice it to say he does not agree with my decision and filed a complaint to the council.

Any further discussion of this at this time should cease. Or be directed to dargorygel, or President Eden who are kouncilmembers not playing or GMING

He literally said it was his last post. I think you're all good brain.

I also don't think brain's actions should really change anyone's opinions at all.

[Bonatogether]

This post has a number of glaring flaws.
1. Looking at it for whether I deserve credit is a dumb way to look at it, I obviously don't.
2. The fact that you can't verify that I'm town doesn't give you blanket cover to avoid analyzing the situation.
Why don't you think that town celaph would vote like I did? As I mentioned earlier, I don't care how strongly incentivized scum would have been to vote there if town would have also voted there.
3. The alignment of a player has no relevance on whether or not their action was scummy or towny. Just because a town does something doesn't make that action towny and not all actions by scum are scummy.
You've discussed why scum are incentivized to vote there, but that doesn't mean that voting anti-town.
4. You can't just take "averages" of deserved credit, even if you derived it correctly, and use that to dictate how you act.

0) Your post has the glaring flaw of defending an incorrect position

1) All votes deserve some credit, one way or the other.

2) I did?

3) "You've discussed why scum are incentivized to vote there, but that doesn't mean that voting anti-town." Scum votes are presumably anti-town (or pro-scum) by definition?

4) But I am

I'm feeling petty so let's do this.
0) You can make all the assertions you want, that doesn't make them right.

1) Why must credit be binary scumy/towny as you've described it? It seems obvious to me that if someone should always do X regardless of alignment then them doing X is NAI and the only credit it earns is of them not being stupid.

2) Yes, you avoided analyzing the situation where I was town. You just asserted that I shouldn't get any credit (which is true) and then noted that my alignment was unverifiable and thus we should mostly ignore that part. And you're still avoiding analyzing that situation. I asked you to explain why you think that I (town celaph) wouldn't act in the way I acted and you totally ignored that part of the point.

3) Your use of pro-scum instead of scummy is bizarre because to accurately apply it requires game knowledge town doesn't have. Voting for scum is obviously a towny action and should merit town credit to some (possible negligible) degree. That is true even if the person voting is scum. All scum votes should advance their win-con and thus be pro-scum and thus we can have votes that are both towny and pro-scum. That is what bussing is.

The thing is that as town, I know what actions are towny and which are scummy. I don't know which are pro-town and which are pro-scum as that requires knowledge of everyone's alignments. So trying to speak of votes as pro/anti-town is nonsense without knowing alignment. You've said why scum would vote the way I did, you haven't said why voting that way is scummy. The difference there is important.

4) Just because you can doesn't mean that you should or that the results you derive from doing so are valid.

0) well then i'll be the bigger man and walk away

1) every action has an impact on the game. that impact is either a benefit for town or a detriment to town. Benefiting town is towny, benefiting scum is scummy.

2) This is misinterpreting my point. I said 'on assumption you're town, you deserves no credit for this, because this makes no sense for you as town'. Then, I go on to say, 'if he's scum, this vote makes sense, so scumpoints'. Finally, I conclude, 'we don't know either way, so we have to look at both. neutral and scummy average out to scummy, so celaph looks worse'

3) Voting for scum is a towny action on the face of it but if there is a possibility of bussing then it must be treated separately. There is a difference between the person who makes a massive case on someone and then another person who just hops on and says 'choo choo'. This is why your vote for a scum player is not actually unequivocally townie, and in my opinion, pretty scummy.

4) Prove it by flipping

[Bonatogether]

##vote Chaqa

I’m sure the Ghug wagon is scum driven right now and Chamie is our best kill.

@worceJ - I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment that Ghug and Chamie are on opposite sides, but if you believe that would you be willing to flip Chamie instead of Ghug?

@Bona - do you have any case against Ghug? What do you think of flipping Chamie instead?

@rdr - I don’t think you’re scum, but iirc you haven’t presented a good case for voting Ghug

I have no case against ghug.

I townread chaka.

[Bonatogether]

##vote celaph

[Maniac]

snip

Any further discussion of this at this time should cease. Or be directed to dargorygel, or President Eden who are kouncilmembers not playing or GMING

He literally said it was his last post. I think you're all good brain.

I also don't think brain's actions should really change anyone's opinions at all.

I really don't want to discuss it further, but people's opinions and reads are affected by out of game nonsense including the history between you and Jamie. It shouldn't roll over from game to game but it clearly does and that is to the detriment of the game.

[ghug]

##vote Chaqa

I’m sure the Ghug wagon is scum driven right now and Chamie is our best kill.

@worceJ - I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment that Ghug and Chamie are on opposite sides, but if you believe that would you be willing to flip Chamie instead of Ghug?

@Bona - do you have any case against Ghug? What do you think of flipping Chamie instead?

@rdr - I don’t think you’re scum, but iirc you haven’t presented a good case for voting Ghug

I have no case against ghug.

I townread chaka.

Why?

[ghug]

snip

Any further discussion of this at this time should cease. Or be directed to dargorygel, or President Eden who are kouncilmembers not playing or GMING

He literally said it was his last post. I think you're all good brain.

I also don't think brain's actions should really change anyone's opinions at all.

I really don't want to discuss it further, but people's opinions and reads are affected by out of game nonsense including the history between you and Jamie. It shouldn't roll over from game to game but it clearly does and that is to the detriment of the game.

I'd like us to stop framing this as my history with Jamie. Jamie's been having problems with everyone, and all I've done differently is speak out against it.

[Kakarroto]

Also, celaph is giving me the same vibes now as when he was battling rdr in lylo

Can you tell me please, which game that was? Or which roles/factions they had at the time? Was it t-t or t-s?

[Maniac]

He literally said it was his last post. I think you're all good brain.

I also don't think brain's actions should really change anyone's opinions at all.

I really don't want to discuss it further, but people's opinions and reads are affected by out of game nonsense including the history between you and Jamie. It shouldn't roll over from game to game but it clearly does and that is to the detriment of the game.

I'd like us to stop framing this as my history with Jamie. Jamie's been having problems with everyone, and all I've done differently is speak out against it.

Fair enough

[Kakarroto]

[...]
From a scum~teammate mindset, your move makes sense because you're creating two town wagons tied at first in the hope that others will pile onto one of them, as we usually do. Sharky had good odds of slipping back into the sea instead of being pulled up to the boat, but unfortunately that didn't happen.

unfortunately?

[Kakarroto]

GM NOTE
Jamie was replaced by me, he did not request a sub. I subbed him out rather than modkill.

Council has advised me that this information should be known.

Uh wha? You can do that? That ... that changes the situation a bit.

But wow, forceful replacement sounds harsh.

Also why? I guess I finish reading and come up to date.

[rdrivera2005]

Also, celaph is giving me the same vibes now as when he was battling rdr in lylo

Can you tell me please, which game that was? Or which roles/factions they had at the time? Was it t-t or t-s?

He was town and I was scum. I get him killed and won in the end because of my vote record (I am good at bussing but Celaph's defense was incredibly solid and he almost overcome a sure defeat.

[Kakarroto]

Uh, well, I don't like this situation but alright, lets wait for after the game to talk about it. In the meanwhile I (try to) deduct the few towny notches jamie gained for what I thought was subbing out. Well, he looked ok-ish before anyway so that's that.

However I don't like this Chaqa-bona absolute town reading each other. I mean, alright, I remember something of these two being quite fast to read each other, or at least Chaqa for Bona, for what I remember, but this development right now gives me kinda the creeps. Maybe I'm wrong, but that development doesn't feel natural.

Thanks in the meantime for answering my questions for those who did and for those who didn't, please answer them, the one with the 9 options concerning my thoughts for fox's nk.

[Kakarroto]

Also, celaph is giving me the same vibes now as when he was battling rdr in lylo

Can you tell me please, which game that was? Or which roles/factions they had at the time? Was it t-t or t-s?

He was town and I was scum. I get him killed and won in the end because of my vote record (I am good at bussing but Celaph's defense was incredibly solid and he almost overcome a sure defeat.

Alright, thanks.

So Vecna says that he feels like celaph is in a serious town mode, if I transcribe that correctly. Hmm hmm, that would explain why he felt so defensive, if he is town.

Would you say that Bona is tunneling celaph too hard? Do you feel any maliciousness behind the case(s) he makes?

[Chaqa]

Uh, well, I don't like this situation but alright, lets wait for after the game to talk about it. In the meanwhile I (try to) deduct the few towny notches jamie gained for what I thought was subbing out. Well, he looked ok-ish before anyway so that's that.

However I don't like this Chaqa-bona absolute town reading each other. I mean, alright, I remember something of these two being quite fast to read each other, or at least Chaqa for Bona, for what I remember, but this development right now gives me kinda the creeps. Maybe I'm wrong, but that development doesn't feel natural.

Thanks in the meantime for answering my questions for those who did and for those who didn't, please answer them, the one with the 9 options concerning my thoughts for fox's nk.

If it helps, I was keeping up with the thread til EoD1 assuming Fishy would have to be replaced, so I had some reads coming into this.

[Kakarroto]

Hmm, well, I've had some cross-reading just now from jamie's and bona's posts where they are refering to each other and I'm not really seeing anything that could indicate anything that would justify my creep-read. Guess I'm just paranoid and it's a Chaqa-bona thing.

I mean, I could also be blind and not see anything so don't mind me and have a look at that yourself if you want, but I don't see a lfischl-jamie/chaqa-bona team from the messages.