Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

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rdrivera2005
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#961 Post by rdrivera2005 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:03 am

Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:24 pm
But you know what, I didn't vote for Snowy. That is fine to blame me, but the blame is misplaced. You experts are the ones who are consistently losing. I didn't lose this game for you.
I am not blaming you. The blame is on me and town that believed Bozo over me. But you were playing another game and refuse to listen what other people say.
Anyway, don't give up because of me, I probably need some pause from Mafia games.
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Hamilton Brian
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#962 Post by Hamilton Brian » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:08 am

Oh, so we really are done. Chatting to myself in QT.

Worcej, thanks for running it.

I was a big fan of no-talk nights but I see how 48 hour days would even it out. The 24 hour phases are cramped. However I liked this speed.

I was flabbergasted to be NK’d. I even sent a message to Worcej saying no one on that snowy wagon would be killed. Always wrong.

JBH, keep trying. No need to always be right, because we aren’t, and if people get off wanting to be the smartest people in the room, let them. But listen. Lots of experience amongst these players.

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#963 Post by worcej » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:21 am

snowy801 wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:28 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:24 pm
But you know what, I didn't vote for Snowy. That is fine to blame me, but the blame is misplaced. You experts are the ones who are consistently losing. I didn't lose this game for you.
No, no. Wrong take. Just because they're wrong (and honestly rdrivera was not one of the wrong people - in fact he had this game in hand) doesn't make you right.

One and a half games in, you cannot come into d3 after what transpired in d2 thinking bozo is jester. That is a representative of the core issue: reads can be wrong, but your grasp of revealed facts in the game cannot.
Not to pile on, but the last paragraph is critical. It made no sense for bozo to be Jester

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#964 Post by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:22 am

Hamilton Brian wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:08 am
Oh, so we really are done. Chatting to myself in QT.

Worcej, thanks for running it.

I was a big fan of no-talk nights but I see how 48 hour days would even it out. The 24 hour phases are cramped. However I liked this speed.

I was flabbergasted to be NK’d. I even sent a message to Worcej saying no one on that snowy wagon would be killed. Always wrong.

JBH, keep trying. No need to always be right, because we aren’t, and if people get off wanting to be the smartest people in the room, let them. But listen. Lots of experience amongst these players.
You were NKed because they thought you were an unlikely doc save and they just needed someone to die, to be clear.
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:03 am
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:24 pm
But you know what, I didn't vote for Snowy. That is fine to blame me, but the blame is misplaced. You experts are the ones who are consistently losing. I didn't lose this game for you.
I am not blaming you. The blame is on me and town that believed Bozo over me. But you were playing another game and refuse to listen what other people say.
Anyway, don't give up because of me, I probably need some pause from Mafia games.
I don't think it's really on you. You convinced all but one of the townies who were around, which was pretty good. I was pretty sure you were the real cop, despite what I was saying, and bozo's whole team thought it was better to bus him than go for the win until it became clear at the end that they had it.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#965 Post by worcej » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:28 am

Like I tried to say though - a lot of good town reads were made this game.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#966 Post by Hamilton Brian » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:45 am

And I have to stop high-posting. My entries for the first part of D2 were unfortunate, inflammatory, and not town-cohesive. Sorry town!
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#967 Post by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:46 am

Hamilton Brian wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:45 am
And I have to stop high-posting. My entries for the first part of D2 were unfortunate, inflammatory, and not town-cohesive. Sorry town!
I mean they were confusing as fuck but they obvtowned you. You're fine. I've played some of my best mafia on the shroom comedown.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#968 Post by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:02 am

ghug wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:46 am
Hamilton Brian wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:45 am
And I have to stop high-posting. My entries for the first part of D2 were unfortunate, inflammatory, and not town-cohesive. Sorry town!
I mean they were confusing as fuck but they obvtowned you. You're fine. I've played some of my best mafia on the shroom comedown.
I agree. I disagreed with pretty much every thing you said but I set you aside in the town basket and never had to worry again, which is a very crucial thing.

People like you make this game solvable. Getting your own reads correct will come in time.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#969 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:01 pm

Johnny Big Horse
I hope you don't stop playing.
You WANTED to play, which is the first characteristic that makes you a mafia player.
You were wrong.

But WE need to do a better job in post-game telling you exactly what was wrong, if you indeed want to know. And we seem to hesitate to do that kind of analysis. Maybe in PM instead of public thread.

But I will say, that a willingness to learn, instead of continuing to hunker down after the game, is a necessary ingredient to improving.

No... your 'vote' was not what lost the game. (Any more than any score in any sportsball game was THE score that won or lost.) But knowing now that you were wrong, maybe ask someone you trust in a PM what exactly you did wrong. Some of these folk want to be helpful.

From my perspective, even though you didn't ask... you seemed (and I could be wrong) to move to a position of 'trusting' what anyone was saying. I get this. Trusting in here is OH so hard. Because you know SOMEONE is lying, it is easy to assume everyone is lying. Does that make sense?
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#970 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 pm

To the rest of us.
We should never play this game again.
:-)

I'd appreciate, for the sake of the kouncil, comments on the balance. Eden and I didn't see this outcome as likely. What should we have noted?

AND... I sometimes use 'k' in council because I am implying sarcastically a Soviet Russia sort of behind the scenes powerful agency.

Thanks for GMing, worcej.

I suspect it will STILL be a little while before M69 is up and running. But not TOO long.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#971 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:52 pm

I despise no night chat. I forgot about the game. Maybe I should have used it to evaluate. But there was no pressure to do so..
And another reason to procrastinate.

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#972 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:59 pm

* you seemed UNABLE...

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#973 Post by Hamilton Brian » Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:23 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 pm
To the rest of us.
We should never play this game again.
:-)
As in we shouldn't play mafia or this particular set-up?

Pulling from the wiki https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester

"Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get eliminated Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for eliminating someone who is not of their alignment.

Jesters have been seen with a few hindering modifiers attached to them, such as Even-Day (the Jester only wins if it is eliminated on an even-numbered Day) or a post restriction. In other games, players are told that there is a Jester in the game. This does not usually change that the Jester eventually wins.

Based on all of the above, Jester is generally considered a bastard role."

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#974 Post by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:34 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 pm
To the rest of us.
We should never play this game again.
:-)

I'd appreciate, for the sake of the kouncil, comments on the balance. Eden and I didn't see this outcome as likely. What should we have noted?

AND... I sometimes use 'k' in council because I am implying sarcastically a Soviet Russia sort of behind the scenes powerful agency.

Thanks for GMing, worcej.

I suspect it will STILL be a little while before M69 is up and running. But not TOO long.
I think it's important to be counting the miskills. In a game with three mafia, town should be able to miskill at least two and preferably three times without losing, before considering swings one way or the other based on PRs. Two might have been sufficient here since it was a small game with a cup, but one is much too thin.

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#975 Post by Johnny Big Horse » Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:01 pm
Johnny Big Horse
I hope you don't stop playing.
You WANTED to play, which is the first characteristic that makes you a mafia player.
You were wrong.

But WE need to do a better job in post-game telling you exactly what was wrong, if you indeed want to know. And we seem to hesitate to do that kind of analysis. Maybe in PM instead of public thread.

But I will say, that a willingness to learn, instead of continuing to hunker down after the game, is a necessary ingredient to improving.

No... your 'vote' was not what lost the game. (Any more than any score in any sportsball game was THE score that won or lost.) But knowing now that you were wrong, maybe ask someone you trust in a PM what exactly you did wrong. Some of these folk want to be helpful.

From my perspective, even though you didn't ask... you seemed (and I could be wrong) to move to a position of 'trusting' what anyone was saying. I get this. Trusting in here is OH so hard. Because you know SOMEONE is lying, it is easy to assume everyone is lying. Does that make sense?
I trusted Hamilton this game. I trusted RDR as well.

But I did not trust Chaqa.

I was wrong thinking Bozo was the jester, sure. But so were just about everyone else. Being wrong seems to be part of what being a townie is all about.

The problem, as I see it, although it pisses everyone off when I mention it, is that most of the thinking and posting is utter garbage. People are trying, yes, in good faith, to figure out who the bad guys are. But they are using all their logical powers and basing them often on silly premises. And then they vote wrong. It is a hard game. These people who play are smart. I know.

This game I tried a different way. Rather than trying to follow these species arguments, I tried to go on gut and use my own sense. I read their arguments and based on that decided who I thought was mafia and who was town.

But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group. Better that than to think rightly all alone.

I said on Day 2 and after that Vecna was mafia, and nobody cared. I thought my case was good. But being a newbie and not understanding many of the mechanics of the game, I understand my words carried little weight.

I enjoyed playing, but I spoil it for the others. And this community is theirs. I respect that.

I appreciate your kind words though. But nobody wants to be where they are not wanted. It is a bad feeling.

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#976 Post by President Eden » Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:44 pm

You're definitely wanted around, Johnny.

The mechanics issue here may not have been well-explained during the game. (I didn't follow much of the game at the time.)

But essentially, from the moment rivera and bozo were both claiming cop, the vote was going to be either for one of them, or for one of their claims:
1. If bozo is the cop, then snowy is mafia, because bozo used his ability and discovered from the GM that snowy is mafia. The vote on snowy was operating from the premise that this was true. (rivera is almost certainly also mafia in this case, but snowy HAS TO BE, whereas rivera could be Jester, or could be a dumb townie trying to be a hero.)
2. If bozo is not cop, then it is very highly likely that bozo is mafia or Jester. In that case, voting for bozo is 100% the right line, as you remove an anti-town player from the game.

You probably had a good case on Vecna. (Again, didn't keep up too well with the game so not sure.) You were right about him being mafia, so it can only have been so bad, and likely wasn't bad at all. :) But was it 100% guaranteed good? Because the choice everyone else was making this turn was pretty close to 100%. In this case, it wasn't about following the herd, but about ensuring that your chosen vote had the highest chance of hitting mafia.

If you weren't sure between them, that's fair. In that case, I think no-kill was a valid option due to the numbers present in the game at the time - town was effectively in MILO due to the presence of the Jester, and taking another turn cycle to figure out the best vote between the claims was highly reasonable.

But town couldn't afford to miss from here, and so it's important to make the highest-% vote possible, which was among the cop claims.



You have good instincts and you clearly love playing the game - you should stick around. I think you'll enjoy it and do very well.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#977 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:23 pm

^^this.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#978 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:25 pm

Also... People pushed back against your not liking their logic, etc. Of course. And you didn't like them pushing back against you. Normal stuff.

Lastly... This is not OUR community. It is yours, too. You've played. 😁
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#979 Post by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm

Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#980 Post by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:02 pm

Also, like 3 town and a jester also thought Vecna was scum. It's just rude to pretend otherwise, because you're effectively boiling this down to "I'm just as wrong and right as you are" and that's just not true.
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