M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

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e.m.c^42
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2901 Post by e.m.c^42 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:39 am

e.m.c^42 wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:37 am
snowy801 wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:15 am
snowy801 wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:14 am
Once again, I know you did not understand my and Jamiet's point, so lying again. Point 2.
Correction: did not fail to understand
No, not playing stupid at moment, am not understanding what you think is so inherent of my play in particular, that is so bad this time around as for you to specifically make general statement (assuming you've not looked at past games), outside of activity?
Or am I just misreading you terribly lol

foodcoats
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2902 Post by foodcoats » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:51 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:57 pm
Chaqa wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:45 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:42 pm
EMC, your presence in this community gives a permanent buff to scum, it's that simple. As town you barely provide any help to town, and as scum you leverage that uselessness to stay alive while quietly helping scum to win. It's toxic and shameful.
You're toxic and shameful
I'm sorry you think that way.

If a significant proportion of the community think the same as you, I'll leave, for good.
Chaqa is quitting after he GMs a game for this community he hates. You stay Jamie.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2903 Post by foodcoats » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:55 am

Poo flinging aside, a serious question… I was trying to figure this out with some chats in the GT… there’s a lot of talk of town sucking and the results kind of bear that out.

So… how does one actually play effectively as town? A while back I tried looking up strategy for this but I don’t know if Mafia is even the kind of game that lends itself to generic strategies or advice… as much as I keep trying to come up with heuristics for myself.

If I want to be goodtown, whatdo?
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worcej
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2904 Post by worcej » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:01 am

@EMC - to be a little more... nice about it... the general issue is you lurk and typically troll when you do post. It was cute and funny, but now has ran it's course. When I am not scum with you and trying to figure you out, you normally do not provide value-added content to asses what role you are. I usually just slot you in town because it's the most likely typically.

Expanding further: You generally do not show, via posting, high levels of effort to solve the game and contribute towards your wincon. This is especially difficult in later phases of the game when this is critical.

Like, even more: I was incredibly concerned being on a scum team with you because you'd likely get killed for doing nothing. The calls for it to happen were there, it just didn't happen.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2905 Post by worcej » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:05 am

foodcoats wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:55 am
Poo flinging aside, a serious question… I was trying to figure this out with some chats in the GT… there’s a lot of talk of town sucking and the results kind of bear that out.

So… how does one actually play effectively as town? A while back I tried looking up strategy for this but I don’t know if Mafia is even the kind of game that lends itself to generic strategies or advice… as much as I keep trying to come up with heuristics for myself.

If I want to be goodtown, whatdo?
Be receptive to ideas and communicate thoughts.

ghug and damo were doing an incredibly good job at it in the last phase, I was just lying my teeth off as much as possible. town!worcej would've been onboard with actually getting rdr earlier than I faked it.
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rdrivera2005
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2906 Post by rdrivera2005 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:05 am

Congrats to scum, specially Worcej.

I don't believe in banning anyone but I will push the kill of anyone who lurks on purpose and we should do this as an effort.

@Ghug - I still don't understand how you can't see how scummy that Chaqa's post and vote was.

Vecna and Dargo, thanks for GMing.
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ghug
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2907 Post by ghug » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:22 am

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:05 am
Congrats to scum, specially Worcej.

I don't believe in banning anyone but I will push the kill of anyone who lurks on purpose and we should do this as an effort.

@Ghug - I still don't understand how you can't see how scummy that Chaqa's post and vote was.

Vecna and Dargo, thanks for GMing.
I told you I couldn't read you :razz:
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Hamilton Brian
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2908 Post by Hamilton Brian » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:42 am

A very frustrating, but upon reflection a fun, game. JBH, hope you come back to play again. I won't say it gets easier but things just kind of begin to open up.

Worcej, EMC, Chaqa...well done the three of you. That I decided Foodcoats, Rivera, and Damo were scummier than you breaks my heart.

It was so hard sitting in the God QT after Chaqa's daykill to watch town just get spun.
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dargorygel
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2909 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:21 am

I had thought to make a few closing comments about aspects of M68 and gameplay therein, but the recent heated discussion is drawing a different response from me.

Since my arrival on the Kouncil, ‘we’ have not been heavy-handed or authoritarian. Many times individual players cry out for some heavy-handedness or authoritarian stuff, but that is usually in the heat of a particular moment.

Usually, players desire an authoritarian Kouncil response now, in THIS case. But not in general. And certainly only in the cases about which such players have strong feelings.

But authoritarianism does not work like that. One act breeds more acts, and more expectations.

I have attempted to deal with crises, when they occur, via communication. Both private and public. I have banned players when rules were clearly and purposefully (and maybe even repeatedly) violated. I do not believe it is desirable to ban for violation of the spirit of our laws. That slippery slope bans us all, eventually.

Also, I note that our community works best when we have a wide variety of play styles, abilities, and practices (all within our clearly stated rules, of course.) Even the pinkie toe plays a part. (When coaching High School Football, we always had a variety of knowledge, experience, and ability. We didn’t prohibit ‘different’ players from participating, even if they were skill-less. We enjoyed their character. We taught. We were a team. While it sounds schmaltzy, I tend to see THIS room in the same light.) Even those styles that annoy me, or anger me, or frustrate me. (Some of you do…) They fit into the cog-and-pulley machine that is webDipmafia. I do not want any of you to leave.

So looking at e.m.c^42. I have learned to like his quirky personality. I find his play annoying. I have seen him pull together amazing logic strings. I have seen him drop the ball. Like all of us.

His lurking and lightness might indeed seem detrimental to a victory. But I am not so sure. I will personally continue to urge Einstein to engage more. I urge those of you who might also see that such regular play might be detrimental to do the same thing.

But e.m.c^42 has not broken any of our rules. He met minimum voting requirements and posting requirements. He played with respect. He played towards his wincon. I am not even sure he has broken the spirit of the rules.

He does not play in a manner that I am enthusiastic about. But he doesn’t have to play in a way that I endorse, does he? As long as he (and all of us similarly, of course) follows our laid-out rules.

Perhaps the time has come for a more authoritative Kouncil. If that’s what the room wants, I can bow out.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2910 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:23 am

I'd welcome a discussion on town-improvement.

Comment #1: It looks to me like we forget that it is day 1 when it is day 1. We tend to make pronouncements as if we have four days worth of knowledge... while the earlier knowledge we actually have is only meta.

I am NOT sure what this would look like, exactly. But it might mean less, "GHUG IS SCUM I JUST KNOW IT!" comments on day 1. They tend to set the stage of acceptable accusations for the whole game.

But ghug IS scum.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2911 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:26 am

And also... thanks Vecna for GMing. It was an interesting game! And I certainly enjoyed working with you.

Chaqa... you're up.
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damo666
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2912 Post by damo666 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:56 am

I think the main reason town generally does less well than one would expect is that most if not all the frequent players are good as scum!
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2913 Post by damo666 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:09 am

dargorygel wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:21 am
I had thought to make a few closing comments about aspects of M68 and gameplay therein, but the recent heated discussion is drawing a different response from me.

Since my arrival on the Kouncil, ‘we’ have not been heavy-handed or authoritarian. Many times individual players cry out for some heavy-handedness or authoritarian stuff, but that is usually in the heat of a particular moment.

Usually, players desire an authoritarian Kouncil response now, in THIS case. But not in general. And certainly only in the cases about which such players have strong feelings.

But authoritarianism does not work like that. One act breeds more acts, and more expectations.

I have attempted to deal with crises, when they occur, via communication. Both private and public. I have banned players when rules were clearly and purposefully (and maybe even repeatedly) violated. I do not believe it is desirable to ban for violation of the spirit of our laws. That slippery slope bans us all, eventually.

Also, I note that our community works best when we have a wide variety of play styles, abilities, and practices (all within our clearly stated rules, of course.) Even the pinkie toe plays a part. (When coaching High School Football, we always had a variety of knowledge, experience, and ability. We didn’t prohibit ‘different’ players from participating, even if they were skill-less. We enjoyed their character. We taught. We were a team. While it sounds schmaltzy, I tend to see THIS room in the same light.) Even those styles that annoy me, or anger me, or frustrate me. (Some of you do…) They fit into the cog-and-pulley machine that is webDipmafia. I do not want any of you to leave.

So looking at e.m.c^42. I have learned to like his quirky personality. I find his play annoying. I have seen him pull together amazing logic strings. I have seen him drop the ball. Like all of us.

His lurking and lightness might indeed seem detrimental to a victory. But I am not so sure. I will personally continue to urge Einstein to engage more. I urge those of you who might also see that such regular play might be detrimental to do the same thing.

But e.m.c^42 has not broken any of our rules. He met minimum voting requirements and posting requirements. He played with respect. He played towards his wincon. I am not even sure he has broken the spirit of the rules.

He does not play in a manner that I am enthusiastic about. But he doesn’t have to play in a way that I endorse, does he? As long as he (and all of us similarly, of course) follows our laid-out rules.

Perhaps the time has come for a more authoritative Kouncil. If that’s what the room wants, I can bow out.
@darg thanks for this. I agree with what you say and dislike authoritarianism. I doubt anyone wants you to bow out, I certainly don't. You show great level headed leadership and fair handedness in your Kouncilmanship.

You have commented elsewhere they you enjoy and appreciate Jamie's contribution to the Kouncil. He clearly cares even if his way of showing it can be distasteful, but then we all know what Jamie's like. Now, Jamie says he has offered his resignation but your message above does not address this particular elephant. I do not wish to prejudice matters one way or the other but I think the community needs to know how this will resolve so we can move on.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2914 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:46 am

Aye, damo... it is an elephant. But not really a complicated one. With regret, but understanding, I expect the Kouncil (we added Eden recently) will accept Jamiet's resignation. We desired to wait until the end of M68 to take action.

One effect will hopefully be this: We had intended to make use of community members to help pre-examine setups. Jamie is particularly gifted in that way. And not just Jamie. LOTS of you have skills and knowledge and experience. I plan to run submitted setups past more of you in the future.

There will be a more formal announcement in the Mafia Master Post.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2915 Post by foodcoats » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:43 pm

Thanks worcej and darg for the suggestions on towniness. I think I need to get better at playing to the fact that the game is a conversation. I think sometimes I get into the habit of "talking at" rather than "talking with." I think I also may be in the habit of building my "towncore" in a way that is very much based on... confbias? As in, I tend to like the people who agree with my point of view, which obviously leaves me open to being pocketed (e.g. a couple games ago I could never have believed kgray was scum until, well, she was!). I need to be a little more critical but also more conversational... approaching the game as a dialectic, rather than a diatribe.

An interesting side effect of playing Mafia for me is that I find it improves my communication skills outside the game. But I probably need to be a little more conscious of being a good communicator - both at expressing, and comprehending - inside the game.
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xorxes
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2916 Post by xorxes » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:50 pm

What are the statistics of town wins vs scum wins over all 68 games?

If it is too lopsided maybe games are not being properly balanced, but that's hard to judge with so many different variants.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2917 Post by foodcoats » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:57 pm

Also, I have to put it out there because I hate to be an asshole, and written communication doesn't convey tone or expression very easily...

Although I fully intend to continue heckling Chaqa for saying this community is toxic/not fun and he's going to leave, I do this because I like Chaqa and I don't like the idea of WebDip Mafia without Chaqa. I can say that about pretty much the entire playerbase - including emc! This community probably has some problems due to its small size. It seems to be very much like a "family," even if a crass and dysfunctional one.

I wonder if that intense familiarity and the persistence of a list of "grognards" actually makes it more challenging for town to solve. To quote Diablo, "Too much baggage."
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2918 Post by worcej » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:41 pm

xorxes wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:50 pm
What are the statistics of town wins vs scum wins over all 68 games?

If it is too lopsided maybe games are not being properly balanced, but that's hard to judge with so many different variants.
I wonder if anyone is updating the old spreadsheet...
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dargorygel
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2919 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:54 pm

worcej wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:41 pm
xorxes wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:50 pm
What are the statistics of town wins vs scum wins over all 68 games?

If it is too lopsided maybe games are not being properly balanced, but that's hard to judge with so many different variants.
I wonder if anyone is updating the old spreadsheet...
There is an old spreadsheet???

Kidding... I think squiggs last worked on it, QUITE a while ago.

@xorxes, your question/observation is a good one. It 'seems' and 'feels' like town is always losing, but that is probs not the actual case.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2920 Post by dargorygel » Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:05 pm

Also... lol

GAME HAS ENDED
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