M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

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worcej
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2781 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 pm

ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:32 pm
worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:25 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:19 pm


Look, I never really expected Chaqa to not die yesterday. I wasn't convinced, and I wanted to explore other possibilities and make sure we were making the most of the day. I don't see how either of those things is scummy.
Reviewing your yesterday, I don't see any point where you articulate this and I see more comments (at least at me) that were submarining the case of scum!chaqa.
"Yeah guys let's kill Chaqa today but I'm gonna sit on rd for a while" kinda defeats the purpose. I wanted to see if anything would happen with a counterwagon. I wanted to question y'all (but specifically rd because, frankly, I'm used to finding your logic underwhelming when you're town), and I wanted to spend the time trying to figure out if we were right.

I told Chaqa pretty early in the day that I was struggling to see a world where he wasn't scum. I told damo I wanted competitive wagons until we coalesced at the end. I expressed doubts in the final moments. I spent the whole day talking to whoever was around and working through the options. These are towny things to do.

It's dumb to question specific points against your teammate as scum unless you're intending to save them, since people can turn around and point to those defenses once they flip. My questioning rd's points on Chaqa obviously wasn't going to get rd to join me in voting for someone else, since he was the one I was voting for, so what would the point have been?
I look at you through the lens of a smart player. You weren't as blatant as your quote was, but you kept your options open to not be forced into a vote.

Also, 'struggling to see a world where Chaqa isn't scum' isn't genuine to me because of how much you poked holes in other's theories and reasoning. You agreed on the concept of him being scum a couple of times, yet attacked reasoning as people were trying to explain and draw up more support to kill Chaqa when he wasn't the lead wagon yet.

And the rdr push by you wasn't supposed to get rdr to move, but get others like myself to do so. I can easily see you trying to manipulate my line of thinking by attacking my reasoning to a point of getting me to sheep.
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rdrivera2005
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2782 Post by rdrivera2005 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 pm

ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:33 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:30 pm
worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:25 pm
Reviewing your yesterday, I don't see any point where you articulate this and I see more comments (at least at me) that were submarining the case of scum!chaqa.
Exactly my point. Ghug were actively dismissing any argument for Chaqa being scum while still keeping a scum read on him.
This continues to be BS. I was arguing against your points, because they were fake and demonstrated that you were obviously bussing him. I wasn't dismissing any argument. I even gave my own.
As I know I am town and my points were all valid it makes obvious to me you are scum, fighting hard to win today.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2783 Post by rdrivera2005 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm

ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:09 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm


A tie is pretty bad as it only let scum to choose another town to kill.
Or they can even choose to not-kill.
It's better than killing me.
This is true as any alignment.
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worcej
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2784 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm

damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:48 pm
If you are town and are currently voting ghug please unvote now.
Why would I unvote?
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ghug
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2785 Post by ghug » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:12 pm

worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:32 pm
worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:25 pm
Reviewing your yesterday, I don't see any point where you articulate this and I see more comments (at least at me) that were submarining the case of scum!chaqa.
"Yeah guys let's kill Chaqa today but I'm gonna sit on rd for a while" kinda defeats the purpose. I wanted to see if anything would happen with a counterwagon. I wanted to question y'all (but specifically rd because, frankly, I'm used to finding your logic underwhelming when you're town), and I wanted to spend the time trying to figure out if we were right.

I told Chaqa pretty early in the day that I was struggling to see a world where he wasn't scum. I told damo I wanted competitive wagons until we coalesced at the end. I expressed doubts in the final moments. I spent the whole day talking to whoever was around and working through the options. These are towny things to do.

It's dumb to question specific points against your teammate as scum unless you're intending to save them, since people can turn around and point to those defenses once they flip. My questioning rd's points on Chaqa obviously wasn't going to get rd to join me in voting for someone else, since he was the one I was voting for, so what would the point have been?
I look at you through the lens of a smart player. You weren't as blatant as your quote was, but you kept your options open to not be forced into a vote.

Also, 'struggling to see a world where Chaqa isn't scum' isn't genuine to me because of how much you poked holes in other's theories and reasoning. You agreed on the concept of him being scum a couple of times, yet attacked reasoning as people were trying to explain and draw up more support to kill Chaqa when he wasn't the lead wagon yet.

And the rdr push by you wasn't supposed to get rdr to move, but get others like myself to do so. I can easily see you trying to manipulate my line of thinking by attacking my reasoning to a point of getting me to sheep.
Can you point to examples other than y'all's criticism of his HB vote where I did this? I picked at one argument I had a problem with, and I think you latched onto that and are now remembering it as more than it was.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2786 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:12 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:09 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm


Or they can even choose to not-kill.
It's better than killing me.
This is true as any alignment.
I swear to god if you all suddenly decide we need to no kill after I explicitly brought this up the phase before and was chastised for it, I'll table flip something.
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damo666
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2787 Post by damo666 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:13 pm

worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm
damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:48 pm
If you are town and are currently voting ghug please unvote now.
Why would I unvote?
Too late now
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2788 Post by ghug » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:13 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:09 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm


Or they can even choose to not-kill.
It's better than killing me.
This is true as any alignment.
Probably true, but I do have more incentive to not die as town than as scum right now. See Chaqa's apathy yesterday.
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damo666
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2789 Post by damo666 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 pm

Calling ghug voters.

Who's his partner?
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2790 Post by ghug » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 pm

worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:12 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:09 pm


It's better than killing me.
This is true as any alignment.
I swear to god if you all suddenly decide we need to no kill after I explicitly brought this up the phase before and was chastised for it, I'll table flip something.
I mean, I still think the optimal play is to kill scum, but killing nobody is better than losing now.
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rdrivera2005
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2791 Post by rdrivera2005 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:15 pm

I am leaving work and will be offline for around 30 minutes but will check back before EOD.
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damo666
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2792 Post by damo666 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:16 pm

@worcej

Ghug is fighting harder than rdr.

Would seem to imply ghug more likely town than scum.
.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2793 Post by ghug » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:21 pm

Hi emc
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2794 Post by Vecna » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:24 pm

Vote count

Ghug (3) vs Rdrivera (3)

37 minutes remaining

Everyone has voted
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worcej
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2795 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:25 pm

ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:12 pm
worcej wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:32 pm


"Yeah guys let's kill Chaqa today but I'm gonna sit on rd for a while" kinda defeats the purpose. I wanted to see if anything would happen with a counterwagon. I wanted to question y'all (but specifically rd because, frankly, I'm used to finding your logic underwhelming when you're town), and I wanted to spend the time trying to figure out if we were right.

I told Chaqa pretty early in the day that I was struggling to see a world where he wasn't scum. I told damo I wanted competitive wagons until we coalesced at the end. I expressed doubts in the final moments. I spent the whole day talking to whoever was around and working through the options. These are towny things to do.

It's dumb to question specific points against your teammate as scum unless you're intending to save them, since people can turn around and point to those defenses once they flip. My questioning rd's points on Chaqa obviously wasn't going to get rd to join me in voting for someone else, since he was the one I was voting for, so what would the point have been?
I look at you through the lens of a smart player. You weren't as blatant as your quote was, but you kept your options open to not be forced into a vote.

Also, 'struggling to see a world where Chaqa isn't scum' isn't genuine to me because of how much you poked holes in other's theories and reasoning. You agreed on the concept of him being scum a couple of times, yet attacked reasoning as people were trying to explain and draw up more support to kill Chaqa when he wasn't the lead wagon yet.

And the rdr push by you wasn't supposed to get rdr to move, but get others like myself to do so. I can easily see you trying to manipulate my line of thinking by attacking my reasoning to a point of getting me to sheep.
Can you point to examples other than y'all's criticism of his HB vote where I did this? I picked at one argument I had a problem with, and I think you latched onto that and are now remembering it as more than it was.
Here are some examples of posts I don't like:
ghug wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 pm
I'm feeling like there's a pretty decent chance of a Chaqa/rdr scum pairing.

rdr was softly townreading/defending/advocating against killing Chaqa until Chaqa voted HB yesterday, saying he was hesitant to join a wagon with rd on it. At that point, he suddenly flipped, and was convinced Chaqa needed to go. Chaqa, for his part, has had a pretty static and underexplained scumread on rd for much of the game.

1. We know rd and Chaqa both like to bus.
2. Chaqa likes to bus early and often with a good amount of theater, knowing he'll be largely ignored. rd is a little more cautious about it, waiting until later in the game, or when there's a necessity (writing is on the wall like me and damo last game, or he doesn't want to be pushing a town miskill with a buddy).
3. rd likes to get very indignant at the people who aren't scumreading his teammate once he's bussing (see Vecna last game).
4. The whole change in direction, along with his logic around it (not very aggressively trying to actually kill Chaqa, scumreading me for not going along with it) is hard for me to see coming from a rational townie.
This was the last post of N3, where you finger point to both Chaqa and rdr as a pair. It's enough sound reasoning to think you're solving and pointing at rdr for 'suddenly' scumming Chaqa when Chaqa did his bad move to HB. Having the context now, it looks bad and appears to me that you were trying to setup the next day's push for rdr.
ghug wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:06 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:02 pm
ghug wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:58 pm
I'm leaning towards a Chaqa/rd/celaph scumteam.
RD and Celaph

##VOTE Celaph
Are you more confident in celaph than rd?
This post was made after JBH moved off rdr and onto celaph, furthering the Chaqa wagon along to up by 2 votes. I interpret it as an attempt to sow doubt into JBH, who had seemed to be following your lead up until this point.
ghug wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:22 pm
worcej wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:17 pm
ghug wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:15 pm


We consistently see low-effort Chaqa as town too, though.
Yes, but I also have spoken numerously about the 3 gun scum team. That completes my scum read of Chaqa.
Right, and the fact that you still don't understand the benefit to withholding either means you're scum with Chaqa and didn't have the opportunity to withhold, or you're town.

I'm only taking issue with the fact that you agree with rd's logic. Usually I can follow his logic. The fact that I can't and you can here suggests that he's not thinking.
This post may not be valid to the question, but I felt you were trying to say rdr and myself both were not thinking and were attacking our process of analyzing Chaqa as scum. It's a subtle at us and throwing shade into our reasoning enough to try to sow doubt into the remaining town players to not follow along with our thinking, which ultimately turned out to be correct.
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worcej
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2796 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:26 pm

damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:16 pm
@worcej

Ghug is fighting harder than rdr.

Would seem to imply ghug more likely town than scum.
.
Not necessarily when rdr is town and he could win if we miskill him. This is really NAI to me because either alignment should be fighting if they are in the crosshairs near EOG
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2797 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:27 pm

damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 pm
Calling ghug voters.

Who's his partner?
Leaning towards you now.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2798 Post by damo666 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:28 pm

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:03 pm
damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:03 pm
Ok ghug I'll switch to rdr and see what happens.

A tie not a disaster is it?

##vote rdr
No, we can afford a tie right now.

##VOTE rdr
A tie is pretty bad as it only let scum to choose another town to kill.
This confirms rdr as scum. Cannot explain now but whoever the town on ghug is should switch to rdr now.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2799 Post by worcej » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:29 pm

damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:28 pm
rdrivera2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:08 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:03 pm


No, we can afford a tie right now.

##VOTE rdr
A tie is pretty bad as it only let scum to choose another town to kill.
This confirms rdr as scum. Cannot explain now but whoever the town on ghug is should switch to rdr now.
I will NOT move my vote just because you say I should, especially when you won't explain why - that's hella scummy.
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Re: M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

#2800 Post by e.m.c^42 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:30 pm

damo666 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 pm
Calling ghug voters.

Who's his partner?
You know what, will take gamble and switch to ##vote rdr then, with how things went when I was asleep a "let's bus each other" scenario seems more likely.

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