M68: Guns N' Roses GAMETHREAD [hidden]

[Hamilton Brian]

So assuming the top two wagons are T v T...my pool today would consist of celaph, damo, emc, ghug, chaqa. That's too many for scum team. I felt like brain was town but now really unsure. Ghug would be viewed as OMGUS...but so what.

[worcej]

Continued read, this time focued on HB. My takeaways are this:

1. He put effort into consolidating information from read lists and the dead.
2. The 'At this point, I'd vote me too' post gave me some scum~vibes specifically because it's a pathetic post that seemed out of place given he was the 'lead' wagon with only 2 votes. I felt like it was an attempt to appeal to some people to town him.
3. Again my own impression, but he seems to be pointing to damo as scum but isn't participating in the vote on him that JBH is putting forward. Why?

I feel like this is going to go over rather poorly in analysis later, but honestly I think JBH is more likely town than I think HB is. A damo flash wagon is highly unlikely and HB is positioned to force the JBH vote through.

##vote HB

[ghug]

Night 1, mafia shot Snowy. Why?

Night 2, mafia shot Snowy again, though this time it's obvious why.

They also shot Eden, and (possibly) shot Johnny.

This nightkills are really weird.

Why haven't ghug, brain, myself, Jamie, etc. been targeted?

You and Jamie seems like an attempt to throw shade (or y'all being scum). Even thru people they did kill were suspecting you.

Brain and I had potential roses, though that obviously didn't stop the Johnny shot.

I'm feeling unwell today, in a very braindead way. I'm gonna take a nap and ideally be back at EoD more composed. I'm less convinced on Johnny than I was yesterday, but I still much prefer a Hamilton kill.

[Johnny Big Horse]

Night 1, mafia shot Snowy. Why?

Night 2, mafia shot Snowy again, though this time it's obvious why.

They also shot Eden, and (possibly) shot Johnny.

This nightkills are really weird.

Why haven't ghug, brain, myself, Jamie, etc. been targeted?

Because some of you are mafia.

[Hamilton Brian]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

[Johnny Big Horse]

@ghug, rdrivera2005, celaph - If you see this, could you expand on why HB over JBH?

Damo and Jamie are dominating the conversation about him atm.

I'm really curious how rdr makes Chaqa/Jamie/Damo scumteam work. For now I'm going to assume that it's impossible and move on.

I've heard two arguments in favor of JBH:
1) Killing him is the only way to ensure that we don't die today
2) The rather poor and factually challenged arguments that he is making.

Argument (1) I think is a bad argument if it's not supported by other reasons to scumread someone. Otherwise, I suspect it's just a scare tactic to get through miskills on townies that are not otherwise easy targets. Yes I know I risk insta-losing by voting someone else, but I think that long term I have a better chance of winning this way. That is partly why I townread Damo's departure from this argument and also why I'm not a fan of his return.

Argument (2) I think on the whole is rather weak because scum don't tend to argue nor find success making false claims as they are easily countered. That said, I fully admit that I have a personal blind spot for scum making suboptimal plays that seem to scummy to be done by scum.

A closer look at examples:

Furthermore, @JBH, President Eden did not list me in his final scumreads:



At this point you are either not reading the game, or you are just making up lies.

I am either making up lies, or I am misreading this post. You guys post so cryptically often. I am sure PE says in this quote that he is confident that Chaqa is mafia.

He did NOT list you as scum in his final read. Yes. You are right. He did, Night 1, and then he changed his mind. I trusted PE most.

Ok, so I didn't lie, I was lazy, and I apologize for that. He said Chaqa, not Jamie.

Some of the messages from Jamie suggest that he sees Johnny as charging forth recklessly, possibly after being coached, to just create a distraction. That said, I do not see a new player in that space having the wherewithal to admit error in this way, it requires to much self awareness.

4. Why did you flip out at Brainbomb on Day 1, during the first 8 hours of this game? What was that about?

4. I reject the suggestion that I "flipped out" at anybody. I had, at best, a mildy salty exchange with Brainbomb, in which you are exaggerating or mis-reading the level of my emotions. I refer you to my answer to #2. I have not begun to lose my temper in this game.

I think it's totally possible for both people to be right here. I don't think it's unreasonable for a new person to see Jamie's rhetoric towards Brain D1 as antagonistic though I personally think Jamie did a decent job staying rather level headed and calm. I also think JBH's opinion on this front has been rather consistent which is probably a towny sign. See:

It seems to me, that either Brainbomb or Jaime, one of them, has got to be mafia, OR... maybe they just hate each other. One of these three. I guess we will find out later.

And lastly, I think that accusing you of coaching JBH is a particularly poor take.

You're also deliberately spelling my name wrong in a way that annoys me. You wouldn't necessarily have known that the spelling "Jaime" particularly irritates me, but I'll tell you who DOES know that. Worcej. He could be the one coaching you.

If you note in the above message from JBH, he's has been misspelling Jamie's name since early D1. So if he's been coached then he must have been coached in the initial item choosing phase in which case I would expect that this clash to have started before today. So unless they've been fighting all game, I think the recent attention to it is more confbias than an actual argument.

The pronouns thing bothers me more. A brief search on the bot suggests that he uses pronouns very rarely to refer to Jamie though more frequently when talking about others though I did find at least one using male pronouns when referring to Jamie.

More of the same. Jamiet deflecting. He does this. He asks your reasons for your suspicions of him, and then he doesn't respond. At least he has done that twice to me. Maybe no response because I am of lesser mental capacity. But I think it is clear Jamiet is scum.
[Rest of post + quote above snipped]

If JBH used she/her pronouns unintentionally, then he should apologize and try not to do that in the future. If it was intentional, then that is very not cool and they should stop.

[Hamilton Brian]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

Of course my counter to this would be, why would scum!Damo invest so much into stepping their toes into the JBH "Jamie as scum" rabbithole? If Jamie is town, then scum!Damo would sit back and enjoy the popcorn.

?

[worcej]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

Okay, because I'm willing to ##vote damo

I'm highly weirded out by damo's latch onto anti-JBH from the moment go this phase and his lack of wanting to push ghug, who has similar questions about 'claiming' but yet gets a pass over JBH doesn't make much sense to me.

[Johnny Big Horse]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

Okay, because I'm willing to ##vote damo

I'm highly weirded out by damo's latch onto anti-JBH from the moment go this phase and his lack of wanting to push ghug, who has similar questions about 'claiming' but yet gets a pass over JBH doesn't make much sense to me.

This is good. Thanks. Let's clear the scum.

If I am wrong, I will be Jaime's pet.

[Hamilton Brian]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

Okay, because I'm willing to ##vote damo

I'm highly weirded out by damo's latch onto anti-JBH from the moment go this phase and his lack of wanting to push ghug, who has similar questions about 'claiming' but yet gets a pass over JBH doesn't make much sense to me.

But what of my counter to my own vote? Resonates or no? What is the rationale for Damo being SO invested in the Jamie/JBH back and forth?

[dargorygel]

Cats love ties in the same way they love pingpong games… they enjoy looking back and forth and back and forth and back and forth.

The cat opens his mouth.

“MeeSQUAWKoow”

And writes on the board, with much better handwriting than the parrot

Vote Count 3.6
Hamilton Brian: (3) ghug, rdrivera2005, celaph
Johnnny Big Horse: (3) damo666, Jamiet99uk, Chaqa
Damo666: (3) Johnny Big Horse, Hamilton Brian, worcej
Ghug: (1) e.m.c^42

All have voted.
All have posted

THREE WAY TIE

Around an hour and a half left.

[rdrivera2005]

Are we ok letting emc or one of the top wagons decide the DK or we will consolidate?

My preferred order is HB-Damo-JBH.

[celaph]

[snip...]

I like this post, but it didn't really tell me why HB has your vote.

Fair point. I agreed with ghug's reasons for being suspicious and added to them when I voted HB. That said, I was more confident then than I am now. HB has had some decent posts as of late. Thinking of jumping off.

The push on JBH is a very bad push, though I know that there is at least 1 town on it (Jamie being the top candidate). Particularly not a fan of the way that Damo reverted on him. Bigger concern is that there are a lot of people that I don't got a great read on. Chaqa's iso is lukewarm at best. Rdr's makes me want to lean town on him. ghug feels unusually inactive.

Can you explain your thought process behind voting Damo?

[celaph]

If it was intentional, then that is very not cool and they should stop.

To be clear, you're saying that you intentionally misgendered Jamie and are proud of it?

If that's the case, I request you sub out.

[Chaqa]

My big reservation to switch over to Hamilton is that rivera is voting there.

If rivera is town, then the scumteam is like... what, Hamilton-worcej-EMC, I guess?

If we lose for not killing Johnny today, we probably were never going to win anyway, I guess.

##Vote Hamilton

[Chaqa]

Hell, even if the Johnny +2 scum with 2 guns left theory is correct, if Johnny is the one who shot last night, we could be in big trouble anyway.

Might as well hope he's town, I guess.

[Johnny Big Horse]

If you're looking for a commitment then, let me latch the vote to what would be considered my strongest and probably most-researched scumread.

##Vote Damo

Okay, because I'm willing to ##vote damo

I'm highly weirded out by damo's latch onto anti-JBH from the moment go this phase and his lack of wanting to push ghug, who has similar questions about 'claiming' but yet gets a pass over JBH doesn't make much sense to me.

But what of my counter to my own vote? Resonates or no? What is the rationale for Damo being SO invested in the Jamie/JBH back and forth?

That the Mafia liars watch out for each other. If we were Mafia, and they were onto you, I would do my best to damage the reputation of whomever was making you look bad. I would also point fingers everywhere, confusing everyone.

[rdrivera2005]

My big reservation to switch over to Hamilton is that rivera is voting there.

If rivera is town, then the scumteam is like... what, Hamilton-worcej-EMC, I guess?

If we lose for not killing Johnny today, we probably were never going to win anyway, I guess.

##Vote Hamilton

This vote is so contrived and scummy that it makes me really want to change my vote.

Chaqa is scum. Eden was right. Can we wagon him?

##vote Chaqa

[Jamiet99uk]

Night 1, mafia shot Snowy. Why?

Night 2, mafia shot Snowy again, though this time it's obvious why.

They also shot Eden, and (possibly) shot Johnny.

This nightkills are really weird.

Why haven't ghug, brain, myself, Jamie, etc. been targeted?

Again, you and Jamie probably should have stood as obvious nightkills. No chance of hitting a vest since all three of your objects were used. Only PE had something unclaimed so a big chance on them.,

No no, once again, Eden claimed a vest.

[Johnny Big Horse]

[snip...]

I like this post, but it didn't really tell me why HB has your vote.

Fair point. I agreed with ghug's reasons for being suspicious and added to them when I voted HB. That said, I was more confident then than I am now. HB has had some decent posts as of late. Thinking of jumping off.

The push on JBH is a very bad push, though I know that there is at least 1 town on it (Jamie being the top candidate). Particularly not a fan of the way that Damo reverted on him. Bigger concern is that there are a lot of people that I don't got a great read on. Chaqa's iso is lukewarm at best. Rdr's makes me want to lean town on him. ghug feels unusually inactive.

Can you explain your thought process behind voting Damo?

1. Brainbomb, your predecessor was convinced it was Damo. He listed like 20 reasons, few of which I understood. IF, Brainbomb and you are town, then look at that. If Brainbomb and you are Mafia, then... keep confusing us.
2. Damo's jumping to help Jaime against me. Why? Because they are working on the same team.
3. Damo's virulent response to my theories, which many of you dismiss. Why not just ignore the village idiot. No, he had to try to destroy my town reputation.

That is not a lot here. I get this feeling Damo and Jamie are united at the hip. I certainly feel Jaime is Mafia, and if they are so tight, then Damo must be Mafia. But I don't think I can convince enough people about Jaime, but Damo seems an easier sell.

I know my proofs are not very good. Talk about crappy reasoning. But read Brainbomb. He had 20 reasons.