MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[ghug]

Revised reads, part 4

Reasoning is basically my stuff from part 1 mushed together with bunny's thoughts. I can give a more exact reasoning for anyone if you ask

One "less than" symbol is saying "a bit less than", two is "a fair bit less than", and three is "something's really fucked up if they're this role."

bob - town > sk > mafia >>> alien
brain - town >>> mafia = sk >>> alien
bungo - mafia > alien >> town >>> sk
celaph - alien > mafia >>> town > sk
damo - town = mafia >> alien >>> sk
donny - town = mafia > alien >>> sk
emc - town > sk >>> mafia = alien
ezio - alien > mafia >> town >>> sk
ghug - alien = mafia > town >>> sk
hb - town >> alien >>> mafia = sk
kgray - town > sk >> mafia >>> alien
macca - alien > mafia >> town >>> sk
maniac - not sure
rdr - alien > mafia >> town >>> sk

How is alien not at the bottom of my list?
Why is alien at the bottom of brain's list?
What's your logic on Macca?
You still think damo is as likely mafia as town?
What about Maniac makes him so much harder to read than the rest of us that you didn't even try?

[kgray]

I get HR is experienced. Great.

Tell me why he collapsed like he did EOD2. I still don't understand it, and I've reread that EOD twice now. I have no idea what happened. The only theory I can come up with is that the aliens are panicking and swinging away.

Apparently I was better at getting under his skin than he predicted
Could be

There's a difference between HR freaking out on me at EOD and the team coming up with a plan to try to salvage it at night, but that's really not my point at all. You can't say things like "aliens did this sub-optimally and therefore they're inexperienced" when the only alien that's flipped is one of the most experienced players in the game. It's a bad argument and I think it's just a little too convenient considering you're pushing the wagons of two relatively inexperienced players.
Fair enough. I like to ascribe the philosophy that people have reasons they think are good for their plays (in life, games, whatever). That when you see something suboptimal, it's still something they had a reason to say, "aha! here's my play!" But the issue then is, how did they come to a suboptimal play? How can you exploit it?

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

[ghug]

Apparently I was better at getting under his skin than he predicted
Could be

There's a difference between HR freaking out on me at EOD and the team coming up with a plan to try to salvage it at night, but that's really not my point at all. You can't say things like "aliens did this sub-optimally and therefore they're inexperienced" when the only alien that's flipped is one of the most experienced players in the game. It's a bad argument and I think it's just a little too convenient considering you're pushing the wagons of two relatively inexperienced players.
Fair enough. I like to ascribe the philosophy that people have reasons they think are good for their plays (in life, games, whatever). That when you see something suboptimal, it's still something they had a reason to say, "aha! here's my play!" But the issue then is, how did they come to a suboptimal play? How can you exploit it?

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

What do you think is the motivation for this?

I'm inclined to think that Bunny is just fundamentally flawed.

[Bonatogether]

How is alien not at the bottom of my list?
Why is alien at the bottom of brain's list?
What's your logic on Macca?
You still think damo is as likely mafia as town?
What about Maniac makes him so much harder to read than the rest of us that you didn't even try?

1. I think that your play lines up with my idea of players shifting their play towards the best play that I identified for each faction.

2. Because aliens have no incentive to lead dks, or to be making bold mason claims, or basically anything he's done this game. Alien's first priority is to not be nked, and so they shouldn't be doing things to draw it. Brain's stated goal is to be nked.

3. Their actions line up with their meta but don't really help us. This is kinda the archetypical play that I think aliens are going for, so aliens are first. However, it's also a viable mafia play, so mafia are a close second. They're doing a bad job at sk if they are, since sk needs to avoid any suspicion for as long as possible, so that's rock bottom. Then, town just isn't anywhere near as close as a possible explanation for their actions, but it's still not impossible, so it's in between mafia and sk, so alien > mafia >> town >>> sk.

4. Whoops

5. He hasn't posted anything much, and I don't know

[kgray]

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

What do you think is the motivation for this?

I'm inclined to think that Bunny is just fundamentally flawed.

I think scum!Bunny likes to dismiss my arguments. He made a nonsense conclusion about the composition of the alien team that he couldn't defend in the slightest, and instead of even thinking about it he just deflects. It's not in line with how much effort he's allegedly putting in to solving the mechanics of the game.

Also, he dismissed me for reading people rather than mechanics and instead wants to vote based on the story he decided was "most likely" which is actually based on a lot of assumptions that we can't possibly know at this point.

It just feels like he's pushing a narrative.

[kgray]

@bona you also left Vecna off your list

[Bonatogether]

@bona you also left Vecna off your list

vecna - alien > town >> mafia >>> sk

[BunnyGo]

Apparently I was better at getting under his skin than he predicted
Could be

There's a difference between HR freaking out on me at EOD and the team coming up with a plan to try to salvage it at night, but that's really not my point at all. You can't say things like "aliens did this sub-optimally and therefore they're inexperienced" when the only alien that's flipped is one of the most experienced players in the game. It's a bad argument and I think it's just a little too convenient considering you're pushing the wagons of two relatively inexperienced players.
Fair enough. I like to ascribe the philosophy that people have reasons they think are good for their plays (in life, games, whatever). That when you see something suboptimal, it's still something they had a reason to say, "aha! here's my play!" But the issue then is, how did they come to a suboptimal play? How can you exploit it?

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

If you don't see the connection, I'm saying it was my first thought as to their mental state for the choice. Other possibilities include: they panicked, choice a play and then didn't question it; or it's actually clever and deep for reasons I don't grok; or it's just focused on weird stuff; or who knows?!

The push on celaph and Macca has nothing to do with the general read that they're new (in fact, the Macca theory is exactly that they aren't alien), but mechanics. The push on Donny has to do with general tonal and intention read.

But ask yourself this: why don't I want to be townread more? I'm clearly capable of posting in a way that gets me townread if I wanted to. This is a choice.

And here's a tantalizing fact: We have a mutual townclear.

[BunnyGo]

What do you think is the motivation for this?

I'm inclined to think that Bunny is just fundamentally flawed.

Aren't we all.

But seriously, I've never understood why people find me hard to read. Celaph did it in D1 last game having only played one game with me prior. He's clearly very very good at this.

You on the other hand, I find are only readable when agitated. Hence me going out of the way to agitate you. Still pondering the results, but I'm leaning not-town.

[kgray]

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

If you don't see the connection, I'm saying it was my first thought as to their mental state for the choice. Other possibilities include: they panicked, choice a play and then didn't question it; or it's actually clever and deep for reasons I don't grok; or it's just focused on weird stuff; or who knows?!

The push on celaph and Macca has nothing to do with the general read that they're new (in fact, the Macca theory is exactly that they aren't alien), but mechanics. The push on Donny has to do with general tonal and intention read.

But ask yourself this: why don't I want to be townread more? I'm clearly capable of posting in a way that gets me townread if I wanted to. This is a choice.

And here's a tantalizing fact: We have a mutual townclear.

I don't trust you and I want to argue with everything you've said here, but actually I can't.

I am kinda annoyed with your whole "I'm trying to be scummy" line because I'm pretty sure you've loudly advocated for town to be obvtown so they can find each other, but whatever.

[Bonatogether]

Somehow I missed this response from Bunny that completely ignores my point that his argument was bad and that he seems to just be baselessly shading inexperienced players. He's talking about exploiting suboptimal play or something but I can't possibly see how that's relevant in this kind of game, and more importantly, he's just deflecting because he can't defend his "aliens are inexperienced" argument.

If you don't see the connection, I'm saying it was my first thought as to their mental state for the choice. Other possibilities include: they panicked, choice a play and then didn't question it; or it's actually clever and deep for reasons I don't grok; or it's just focused on weird stuff; or who knows?!

The push on celaph and Macca has nothing to do with the general read that they're new (in fact, the Macca theory is exactly that they aren't alien), but mechanics. The push on Donny has to do with general tonal and intention read.

But ask yourself this: why don't I want to be townread more? I'm clearly capable of posting in a way that gets me townread if I wanted to. This is a choice.

And here's a tantalizing fact: We have a mutual townclear.

I don't trust you and I want to argue with everything you've said here, but actually I can't.

I am kinda annoyed with your whole "I'm trying to be scummy" line because I'm pretty sure you've loudly advocated for town to be obvtown so they can find each other, but whatever.

Being scummy intentionally is dumb. Scum can't obv!town or keep up a towny facade for days on end, and being scummy lets them hide behind that

[ghug]

How is alien not at the bottom of my list?
Why is alien at the bottom of brain's list?
What's your logic on Macca?
You still think damo is as likely mafia as town?
What about Maniac makes him so much harder to read than the rest of us that you didn't even try?

1. I think that your play lines up with my idea of players shifting their play towards the best play that I identified for each faction.

2. Because aliens have no incentive to lead dks, or to be making bold mason claims, or basically anything he's done this game. Alien's first priority is to not be nked, and so they shouldn't be doing things to draw it. Brain's stated goal is to be nked.

3. Their actions line up with their meta but don't really help us. This is kinda the archetypical play that I think aliens are going for, so aliens are first. However, it's also a viable mafia play, so mafia are a close second. They're doing a bad job at sk if they are, since sk needs to avoid any suspicion for as long as possible, so that's rock bottom. Then, town just isn't anywhere near as close as a possible explanation for their actions, but it's still not impossible, so it's in between mafia and sk, so alien > mafia >> town >>> sk.

4. Whoops

5. He hasn't posted anything much, and I don't know

1/3. The likeliest explanation of the roleblocks is that we were both probed.
2. Can you imagine how suspicious brain would look if he didn't do any of that stuff?
5. Why are rd and jasnah not on this level? Vecna you apparently forgot.

[ghug]

Oh you forgot jasnah too.

[ghug]

What do you think is the motivation for this?

I'm inclined to think that Bunny is just fundamentally flawed.

Aren't we all.

But seriously, I've never understood why people find me hard to read. Celaph did it in D1 last game having only played one game with me prior. He's clearly very very good at this.

You on the other hand, I find are only readable when agitated. Hence me going out of the way to agitate you. Still pondering the results, but I'm leaning not-town.

I would have gotten pissed at you last game as either alignment. You're gonna have to get over that.

[kgray]

@Bob:

Finally, a good outcome. Not sure what HR was thinking with those repeated, obvious lies, but we got him.

What did you think he was obviously lying about?

[Bonatogether]

1. I think that your play lines up with my idea of players shifting their play towards the best play that I identified for each faction.

2. Because aliens have no incentive to lead dks, or to be making bold mason claims, or basically anything he's done this game. Alien's first priority is to not be nked, and so they shouldn't be doing things to draw it. Brain's stated goal is to be nked.

3. Their actions line up with their meta but don't really help us. This is kinda the archetypical play that I think aliens are going for, so aliens are first. However, it's also a viable mafia play, so mafia are a close second. They're doing a bad job at sk if they are, since sk needs to avoid any suspicion for as long as possible, so that's rock bottom. Then, town just isn't anywhere near as close as a possible explanation for their actions, but it's still not impossible, so it's in between mafia and sk, so alien > mafia >> town >>> sk.

4. Whoops

5. He hasn't posted anything much, and I don't know

1/3. The likeliest explanation of the roleblocks is that we were both probed.
2. Can you imagine how suspicious brain would look if he didn't do any of that stuff?
5. Why are rd and jasnah not on this level? Vecna you apparently forgot.

1/3. Ok.

2. Yeah, but if I say the magic letters (wifom) I win the argument

wifom

5. I put out a vecna read cause kgray pointed it out as well, and cause Maniac is the lowest posting townie by a fair amount. rdr has a sixth more posts, and jasnah has a half more.

[Bonatogether]

Oh you forgot jasnah too.

dammit

jasnah - alien > town >> mafia >> sk

[ghug]

1. I think that your play lines up with my idea of players shifting their play towards the best play that I identified for each faction.

2. Because aliens have no incentive to lead dks, or to be making bold mason claims, or basically anything he's done this game. Alien's first priority is to not be nked, and so they shouldn't be doing things to draw it. Brain's stated goal is to be nked.

3. Their actions line up with their meta but don't really help us. This is kinda the archetypical play that I think aliens are going for, so aliens are first. However, it's also a viable mafia play, so mafia are a close second. They're doing a bad job at sk if they are, since sk needs to avoid any suspicion for as long as possible, so that's rock bottom. Then, town just isn't anywhere near as close as a possible explanation for their actions, but it's still not impossible, so it's in between mafia and sk, so alien > mafia >> town >>> sk.

4. Whoops

5. He hasn't posted anything much, and I don't know

1/3. The likeliest explanation of the roleblocks is that we were both probed.
2. Can you imagine how suspicious brain would look if he didn't do any of that stuff?
5. Why are rd and jasnah not on this level? Vecna you apparently forgot.

1/3. Ok.

2. Yeah, but if I say the magic letters (wifom) I win the argument

wifom

5. I put out a vecna read cause kgray pointed it out as well, and cause Maniac is the lowest posting townie by a fair amount. rdr has a sixth more posts, and jasnah has a half more.

WIFOM in no way wins you this argument. You're the one making a claim about how brain would behave as a specific alignment.

[Bonatogether]

2. Yeah, but if I say the magic letters (wifom) I win the argument

wifom

WIFOM in no way wins you this argument. You're the one making a claim about how brain would behave as a specific alignment.

Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with scum!brain, but it's kinda stupid to claim that as alien, because it likely draws an nk when they need to avoid nks as one of their top goals, sk, for the same reason, but more, and mafia, since people are gonna start asking why he's not dead when he's supposedly trying to draw the nk.

[ghug]

2. Yeah, but if I say the magic letters (wifom) I win the argument

wifom

WIFOM in no way wins you this argument. You're the one making a claim about how brain would behave as a specific alignment.

Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with scum!brain, but it's kinda stupid to claim that as alien, because it likely draws an nk when they need to avoid nks as one of their top goals, sk, for the same reason, but more, and mafia, since people are gonna start asking why he's not dead when he's supposedly trying to draw the nk.

Telling everyone you want to be nightkilled... now that's WIFOM.

Look, I agree with you that brain's town, but it's also clear that he's ruffled enough feathers and hasn't claimed assertively enough for him to be the likeliest of nightkills, and applying your general template for optimal play by alignment is missing the fact that he's brainbomb, which changes things, just as there's mechanical info that should be informing your reads on me and Macca.

I continue to think you're just really eager town, but you really need to step back and consider if there are better ways to be useful than applying shoddy rubrics to everyone with little care.