MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[brainbomb]

A) if psychotrooper in play, then coroner is nerfed
B) is that how it would work with a day kill? ##call GM

GM NOTE:

No, I'm afraid it would not.

Voting for someone to be daykilled is not performing a kill for the purposes of adjudication, for the same reason that a Doctor cannot save someone from being Daykilled, a Hider cannot hide from being Daykilled, etc. Voting for someone who ends up being the top wagon does not make you a "killer" for the purposes of the Coroner.

With the greatest deal of respect, joint enterprise is a well established principle in English Law and jurisdictions like the former colonies of America and other places. It should not matter who wields the knife, they are all guilty. It is an absurdity to suggest that Brutus was the only killer. It’s also absurd to suggest we have a kill with no killers. Are all the deaths now merely to regarded as suicide. You surely can not be serious about overriding 800 years of sound legal principles, just to bend the universe to a game of Mafia. I beseech you please reconsider. Or don’t I’m really not that bothered.

This needs to go on my tombstone

[Ezio]

I don't know, I think scum!Maniac could easily make that "observation." But I agree, he shouldn't be our target today.

Thoughts on killing celaph for the possible psychotrooper intel? All you've said about celaph today is that his wagon is sus. What don't you like about damo?

Damo's the guy who claimed one of the fake scan roles. Def the scummiest claim possible. I haven't read anything from him that made me think he was town while I was reading it, or thinking about it after. Mostly because he hasn't posted anything that's made me think.

Scummy claim+bad press=scumread.

We should *not* make a pure information kill today. Information kills are always shitty. It gives scum tons of dumb town to hide behind b/c too many of both say, at EoD, "I dislike both these wagons but this one's the information flip", or "voting here for info. At least we know our scans are viable in the future" or whatever.

Fuck that. Ppl gotta vote who they think is scum and we're gonna give them no other reasons for their votes.

Why does scum!damo claim in that situation, though? What does he get out of it?

I agree, info kills are bad. But if damo is telling the truth then we get actual mechanical info, not just VCA "help" which I think might make this worth it.

Scum!damo claims b/c he's worried about getting scanned and for whatever reason felt pressured to make a claim.

I'm actually shocked you're making this argument about celaph. He's going to flip at somepoint, and our PR's are going to keep getting their scans. If we later learn if their scans are valid or not, we can use that information then (namely after celaph flips). This is a 21 person game (19 now), so we have loads of time before we need to use the scans.

Who knows, maybe celaph claims PR at some point and mafia need to NK him instead. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Hamilton Brian]

Maniac went after kgray. Scum would not go after kgray. Therefore, maniac is not scum.

That seems to take a lot for granted. Scum vote one another all the time. Say in this case Maniac and Kgray are scum together, it's a safe vote for Maniac to make because they're not really pushing the case. It's simply a parked vanity vote.

[Maniac]

This is interesting:

damo666: No. Not celaph today

Kgray: Why? Do you townread him? You don't even seem to have strong scumreads that could be other candidates, so what's wrong with celaph?

damo666 (to Bona): LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU celaph is NOT alien

damo666: "Oh thanks. Cross post with my subsequent post.
We should definitely daykill celaph then."

Kgray: How come you didn't support this before it was pointed out that we could use celaph's flip to determine if there was a psychotrooper? I feel like you should have come to that conclusion on your own after getting an alien scan on someone. [my emphasis added]

I know many of you don't believe in scumslips, but this looks like Kgray believes Damo has a scan different to what Damo has alluded to.

It's enough for me to ##voteKgray.

What? Damo claimed celaph wasn't an alien so he's claiming to be a conspiracy theorist who scans for aliens. In what world is this a scumslip?

One of us is completely misunderstanding Damo.

[Ezio]

Maniac went after kgray. Scum would not go after kgray. Therefore, maniac is not scum.

That seems to take a lot for granted. Scum vote one another all the time. Say in this case Maniac and Kgray are scum together, it's a safe vote for Maniac to make because they're not really pushing the case. It's simply a parked vanity vote.

Nah.

[kgray]

Damo's the guy who claimed one of the fake scan roles. Def the scummiest claim possible. I haven't read anything from him that made me think he was town while I was reading it, or thinking about it after. Mostly because he hasn't posted anything that's made me think.

Scummy claim+bad press=scumread.

We should *not* make a pure information kill today. Information kills are always shitty. It gives scum tons of dumb town to hide behind b/c too many of both say, at EoD, "I dislike both these wagons but this one's the information flip", or "voting here for info. At least we know our scans are viable in the future" or whatever.

Fuck that. Ppl gotta vote who they think is scum and we're gonna give them no other reasons for their votes.

Why does scum!damo claim in that situation, though? What does he get out of it?

I agree, info kills are bad. But if damo is telling the truth then we get actual mechanical info, not just VCA "help" which I think might make this worth it.

Scum!damo claims b/c he's worried about getting scanned and for whatever reason felt pressured to make a claim.

I'm actually shocked you're making this argument about celaph. He's going to flip at somepoint, and our PR's are going to keep getting their scans. If we later learn if their scans are valid or not, we can use that information then (namely after celaph flips). This is a 21 person game (19 now), so we have loads of time before we need to use the scans.

Who knows, maybe celaph claims PR at some point and mafia need to NK him instead. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Don't see why damo would feel that way, but okay.

I'm making this argument because I actually scumread celaph. If this were about Rivera, for example, I would not be proposing this daykill.

If celaph claims PR we kill him immediately, since he already claimed VT.

[Ezio]

Why does scum!damo claim in that situation, though? What does he get out of it?

I agree, info kills are bad. But if damo is telling the truth then we get actual mechanical info, not just VCA "help" which I think might make this worth it.

Scum!damo claims b/c he's worried about getting scanned and for whatever reason felt pressured to make a claim.

I'm actually shocked you're making this argument about celaph. He's going to flip at somepoint, and our PR's are going to keep getting their scans. If we later learn if their scans are valid or not, we can use that information then (namely after celaph flips). This is a 21 person game (19 now), so we have loads of time before we need to use the scans.

Who knows, maybe celaph claims PR at some point and mafia need to NK him instead. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Don't see why damo would feel that way, but okay.

I'm making this argument because I actually scumread celaph. If this were about Rivera, for example, I would not be proposing this daykill.

If celaph claims PR we kill him immediately, since he already claimed VT.

Well remember that damo didn't technically claim his role. He claimed his discard and said that his two cards "may have been the same". I could def see him feeling pressured to claim a discard at the time given ppl were claiming discards.

Sure. If you actually scumread celaph then obviously you should push his wagon, but you *cannot* push his wagon to others by claiming information vote. If you are correct, then whatever works is fine. You gotta get him killed no matter what. Hopefully we see mafia defending him etc.
The problem is if you're wrong and he gets daykilled (and this early in the game chance has it he's town), you'll have made your wagon super difficult to get information out of b/c town and mafia alike can jump on the wagon with no repercussions.

[Ezio]

Eh I think my read on HB was shite.

##vote Damo666

[BunnyGo]

Maniac is def town.

There's no way he should be our target for today. No scum is going to go after kgray here.

What do you mean? I mean, my opinion on them has changed, but what's your view based on?

Maniac went after kgray. Scum would not go after kgray. Therefore, maniac is not scum.

I’ve gone after kgray as scum. Twice.

[Ezio]

What do you mean? I mean, my opinion on them has changed, but what's your view based on?

Maniac went after kgray. Scum would not go after kgray. Therefore, maniac is not scum.

I’ve gone after kgray as scum. Twice.

lol ok. If scum plays like you I think we'll be fine.
Different games with different environments.
Maniac is town.

[BunnyGo]

Maniac is def town.

There's no way he should be our target for today. No scum is going to go after kgray here.

What do you mean? I mean, my opinion on them has changed, but what's your view based on?

Maniac went after kgray. Scum would not go after kgray. Therefore, maniac is not scum.

I think you’re missing the point. When kgray says “I meant scanning an alien” maniac gets to say “oh. Ok. “

No risk scum play to look like hunting

[BunnyGo]

A) if psychotrooper in play, then coroner is nerfed
B) is that how it would work with a day kill? ##call GM

GM NOTE:

No, I'm afraid it would not.

Voting for someone to be daykilled is not performing a kill for the purposes of adjudication, for the same reason that a Doctor cannot save someone from being Daykilled, a Hider cannot hide from being Daykilled, etc. Voting for someone who ends up being the top wagon does not make you a "killer" for the purposes of the Coroner.

With the greatest deal of respect, joint enterprise is a well established principle in English Law and jurisdictions like the former colonies of America and other places. It should not matter who wields the knife, they are all guilty. It is an absurdity to suggest that Brutus was the only killer. It’s also absurd to suggest we have a kill with no killers. Are all the deaths now merely to regarded as suicide. You surely can not be serious about overriding 800 years of sound legal principles, just to bend the universe to a game of Mafia. I beseech you please reconsider. Or don’t I’m really not that bothered.

Another lawyer in this group?

[kgray]

Scum!damo claims b/c he's worried about getting scanned and for whatever reason felt pressured to make a claim.

I'm actually shocked you're making this argument about celaph. He's going to flip at somepoint, and our PR's are going to keep getting their scans. If we later learn if their scans are valid or not, we can use that information then (namely after celaph flips). This is a 21 person game (19 now), so we have loads of time before we need to use the scans.

Who knows, maybe celaph claims PR at some point and mafia need to NK him instead. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Don't see why damo would feel that way, but okay.

I'm making this argument because I actually scumread celaph. If this were about Rivera, for example, I would not be proposing this daykill.

If celaph claims PR we kill him immediately, since he already claimed VT.

Well remember that damo didn't technically claim his role. He claimed his discard and said that his two cards "may have been the same". I could def see him feeling pressured to claim a discard at the time given ppl were claiming discards.

Sure. If you actually scumread celaph then obviously you should push his wagon, but you *cannot* push his wagon to others by claiming information vote. If you are correct, then whatever works is fine. You gotta get him killed no matter what. Hopefully we see mafia defending him etc.
The problem is if you're wrong and he gets daykilled (and this early in the game chance has it he's town), you'll have made your wagon super difficult to get information out of b/c town and mafia alike can jump on the wagon with no repercussions.

I mean, I *can* do what I want... But okay. If it were confirmed that celaph's flip would tell us if there's a psychotrooper then I don't think I'd back down from this. But there's enough doubt with damo that it wouldn't be conclusive anyway.

I hereby remove my endorsement of celaph as an info flip.

I hereby state my scumread of celaph as the reason for my ##vote celaph

[Ezio]

Damo's votes today have all been terrible. Let's look at them:
Starts the day off on bunny (actually the best vote here), but abandons the vote in like 10 minutes so it barely counts.

Then parks a vote on kgray for a few hours, but with no case. Merely for "not disclosing discard". That's shite. 12 hours later comes back and puts a vote on bona (the worst vote possible), again with no explanation for bona. Merely saying we should target ppl who discarded mafia goon.

After the bona push (where he received a suitable amount of flak for), he backs off and goes after brainbomb instead. While not obv town, def a terrible choice for the vote.

[Hellenic Riot]

Like the only way to definitively know if there was a psycho in play would be to daykill both celaph *AND* damo - When instead, we can just let the scum NK's (or our own daykills) inform the investigatives courtesy of one of their reports inevitably being killed. We have no idea how many miskills we do or don't have - We really cannot afford to piss them away

Well, okay. I get this. But it requires someone's scan target being killed before they are, which certainly isn't guaranteed, and I still think there's just generally less info for town that way.

But we have at least some miskills, right? Based on how many townies vs scum were required for the game to start.

Do we? Let's assume that *most* people were telling the truth about their discards: We're probably looking at a mafia team of 3-4 people, maybe only 2. So let's take 3 as an average. Now let's look again at the discards and notice how few alien discards have been claimed: So let's assume that the alien team is probably a bit larger - Maybe 5 or even 6. Now throw in a potential SK. That means that realistically we're probably looking at 8 or 9 scum. Given there's only 19 of us alive, we could well already be at our final day where town has a *majority*, and only a few days away from not even being the plurality. We absolutely do not have free miskills to piss away on info-flips.

Why does scum!damo claim in that situation, though? What does he get out of it?

I agree, info kills are bad. But if damo is telling the truth then we get actual mechanical info, not just VCA "help" which I think might make this worth it.

Scum!damo claims b/c he's worried about getting scanned and for whatever reason felt pressured to make a claim.

I'm actually shocked you're making this argument about celaph. He's going to flip at somepoint, and our PR's are going to keep getting their scans. If we later learn if their scans are valid or not, we can use that information then (namely after celaph flips). This is a 21 person game (19 now), so we have loads of time before we need to use the scans.

Who knows, maybe celaph claims PR at some point and mafia need to NK him instead. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Don't see why damo would feel that way, but okay.

I'm making this argument because I actually scumread celaph. If this were about Rivera, for example, I would not be proposing this daykill.

If celaph claims PR we kill him immediately, since he already claimed VT.

I'd love to hear why rdrivera is your example here given you scumread him D1 and he's done absolutely fuck all today. He came in and claimed he'd softed a PR D1 (at night, for no reason whatsoever), and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Why are you no longer scumreading him?

[kgray]

Actually I kinda want to ##vote HR

[kgray]

Ooh, hi HR

[Ezio]

Actually I kinda want to ##vote HR

It's weird but I do too...

[kgray]

Damo's votes today have all been terrible. Let's look at them:
Starts the day off on bunny (actually the best vote here), but abandons the vote in like 10 minutes so it barely counts.

Then parks a vote on kgray for a few hours, but with no case. Merely for "not disclosing discard". That's shite. 12 hours later comes back and puts a vote on bona (the worst vote possible), again with no explanation for bona. Merely saying we should target ppl who discarded mafia goon.

After the bona push (where he received a suitable amount of flak for), he backs off and goes after brainbomb instead. While not obv town, def a terrible choice for the vote.

I totally agree with all of this, but I think that town!damo's votes and reads are often unexplained and all over the place. I am trying to decide if the fact that his reasons for his votes being sort of mechanical (discard claims) is more suspicious than his usual, unexplained gut reads.

[Hellenic Riot]

So

HR can be considered a very methodical player. Doesn't normally overlook things.

But why does his argument discount the possibility that cel is mafia? Is it because HR is mafia and knows that is not a possible outcome? They're scumbuddies and HR is trying to shade the wagon?

I don't like it, Sam I Am.

I literally have no idea how you concluded that me opposing an *ALIEN INFO FLIP* has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not celaph could be mafia