MAFIA 63: THE SCOURGE [HIDDEN]

[aarodactyl]

@jamie I’ll vote for option b. At the very least, if you’re completely sure it’s PR or mafia, there no harm in waiting until closer to EOD in case you get more info from reading them.

[President Eden]

Mafia theory question:

When town should you obvtown or keep something up your sleeve metawise for future games when rolling scum?

I think if you're reasonably advancing your win condition, you don't have an obligation to be as obviously town as possible. You shouldn't sandbag to the point that you are perpetually suspicious as town, but I think it's fair play to decide that you should only do enough to be townread while hunting mafia.

I think the comparison to webDiplomacy's rule against metagaming in Diplomacy games misses the mark, because personal meta is such a huge defining factor for people in our mafia community. It doesn't seem right that people can use your meta as the main reason to catch you as mafia, but that you can't make decisions with that consideration in mind. You should be fine as long as you aren't throwing town games by being so suspicious you're repeatedly miskilled to benefit your mafia game OR throwing mafia games by deliberately being easy to catch so that you get easy townreads in your town games.

[President Eden]

Also I'm satisfied with damo's answer RE: naked votes if the only data point is from M55. That was seven months ago. I don't expect him to remember a naked vote from that long ago.

If there's more recent data and/or a trend then that's another thing. Jamie, is there?

[worcej]

This is so scummy that it just makes me think why he posted it if he is really scum.

People said this last game, and I was town then.

We’re not going to have an understanding of your style for a bit, so don’t be alarmed as people scum you for something as simple as a bad list

[e.m.c^42]

Zultar is reading this everyone act really nice so we can get this thing unhidden 😂

I would just like to say that while I have used some naughty words, I'm not mad at anybody and I love you all, and I think this is understood, but if it isn't clear to someone out there, I will specifically address you to tell you as much.

It's already clear, but I want a specific address anyways ;D

[President Eden]

Zultar is reading this everyone act really nice so we can get this thing unhidden

I would just like to say that while I have used some naughty words, I'm not mad at anybody and I love you all, and I think this is understood, but if it isn't clear to someone out there, I will specifically address you to tell you as much.

It's already clear, but I want a specific address anyways ;D

I love you emc

[ghug]

Why didn't you say that?

Why did you cast a vote as though your intention was to have as little imact as possible? It feels like you voted for Celaph but really didn't want to say anything or persuade anyone to join you.

DemonRHK voted for Celaph but mentioned Celaph only once. If you saw something significant in DemonRHK's post about Celaph, why not call attention to it?

Very suspect, Damo.

It was my immediate reaction to the flip. I thought it was (or would become) obvious and in fact fairly soon after there were other posts discussing celaph.

Free tell for everyone: I don't make naked votes as scum

False.

You naked voted Foodcoats early in D2 of Mafia 55, in which you were the Mafia [Roleblocker].

##VOTE DAMO

Jamiet99theclown

[e.m.c^42]

Ghug cares much more about his image when he's scum, I don't think scum. Ghug votes the ND slot again, he'd make more of an effort to look like he's scum hunting

I actually thought he was scum last time for being too smarmy, but conversely this game he's been a lot more sharp in his snark. Not sure if it's alignment indicative but it's a change.

[ghug]

Help me out here, friends.

I'm in a genuine quandary.

If you found something which proved to you, in your mind, that a certain player was *either* Mafia or a PR (that is, you were sure they're not a VT), but you don't know which, would you:

a) Speak up at once, in the hope of outing a scum?
b) Keep quiet for now, to avoid the risk of exposing a PR?

b

Oh, I have one vote in column "b". Thanks Damo for your input. By my count that's four votes for "a - speak up" and one vote for "b - keep quiet".

I'd probably sit and watch them for a little while and then come out with it later in the day if they're being scummy, as there's upside of saving the PR or finding the connections, but I agree with others that it's not worth avoiding someone because their scummy behavior might be PR indicative.

[Jamiet99uk]

@jamie I’ll vote for option b. At the very least, if you’re completely sure it’s PR or mafia, there no harm in waiting until closer to EOD in case you get more info from reading them.

So that's
Four votes for (a) reveal all at once
and
Three votes for (b) don't tell us yet

[ghug]

I will say I totally read bona wrong last game

My town vibes are weaker this game but they're not nonexistent.

[damo666]

@Damo: Why did you ask that question?
What was the point of it?

Genuinely to see what people's responses were. I tend to agree with Chaqa. How do you actually obvtown? If it were easy scum would do it all the time.

[worcej]

Mafia theory question:

When town should you obvtown or keep something up your sleeve metawise for future games when rolling scum?

Hmmm....

This is an interesting question to me. I think the most obvious thing is to try to always do is to be honest and open. Obviously every town player is going to be wrong multiple times in a game, but at least expanding your thought process and providing reasoning for actions is best.

So with that being said, I would not keep things up your sleeve - it will lead to inherent suspicions now and in future games.

[ghug]

Mafia theory question:

When town should you obvtown or keep something up your sleeve metawise for future games when rolling scum?

You wouldn't do anything with the intention of improving your scum game, but there are other reasons not to obvtown.

[damo666]

Btw for the avoidance of doubt I have nothing up my sleeve.

[ghug]

I don't really agree with the wagon on ghug. I'm getting scummy vibes from them, but they're basically the same scummy vibes I got from him last game (when he was town PR).

On the other hand, if people aren't trusting him, then there's not much incentive for me to finish collecting my thoughts tonight, since I doubt he'll have the energy to fulfill his promise of a tunnel on me.

This post is really weird. Why him tunneling you or not should influence your engagement with the game? Could you be so blatantly scummy?

He was trying to pressure me to spend all evening playing when we still have a day and a half in the phase.

I believe I just pressured you to vote.

[Jamiet99uk]

b

Oh, I have one vote in column "b". Thanks Damo for your input. By my count that's four votes for "a - speak up" and one vote for "b - keep quiet".

I'd probably sit and watch them for a little while and then come out with it later in the day if they're being scummy, as there's upside of saving the PR or finding the connections, but I agree with others that it's not worth avoiding someone because their scummy behavior might be PR indicative.

Ok thanks Ghug.

I'm going to wait just now, I'm seeing how things develop, but I will have to discuss what I've observed at some point.

[Jamiet99uk]

Btw for the avoidance of doubt I have nothing up my sleeve.

That's what the magician always says.

[President Eden]

@Damo: Why did you ask that question?
What was the point of it?

Genuinely to see what people's responses were. I tend to agree with Chaqa. How do you actually obvtown? If it were easy scum would do it all the time.

You make over 200 posts in which you accuse half the town of being mafia by the halfway point of day 2, including both the other 200+ posters, and then you disappear for a year or more so everyone forgets your scum meta. Ezpz

[President Eden]

FWIW Jamie, if you think it's best to hold off on revealing until later in the day, that seems reasonable to me as well. My answer was simply meant to make the point that if you're sure this person is not VT, and you have no specific way to differentiate town PR from mafia, then the math favors pressing that person because ~70% of the time in this setup (5/7) you are hitting mafia. Obviously how you press is up to your discretion, but if your read is right then you have a really good shot at hitting mafia.