M63 Signups

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Chaqa
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Re: M63 Signups

#41 Post by Chaqa » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:56 am

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Re: M63 Signups

#42 Post by Maniac » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:39 am

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16. Maniac (he/him/his)
17. Reserved for maniac’s friend if allowed.

@Tom - is this a 21 ‘Man’ game or a 21 ‘Person’ game. Also can Godfathers be Godparents or Godfather/Godmother? Is Hooker a gender role as in woman who sells sex for money or a hooker like ‘one who hooks’. If it’s a gender role could it be Hooker/Giggalo?

Hope I’m not coming across as being pedantic, just seeking to ensure we are inclusive.

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Re: M63 Signups

#43 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:06 pm

Council Member Jamie T Note:

I detect that Maniac has his tongue slightly in his cheek, but the point is a valid one and I acknowledge it.

This is of course a 21 person setup and female and male players should feel equally welcome.

As for the role names, do not blame Tom for these as they have been in standard usage for some considerable time, but to comment on them:

"Godfather" implies a Mafia capo dei capi as probably originated in the Sicilian mafia but made popular in North American popular culture through films like "The Godfather". In historical reality these people tended to be male but within the Mafia team the honorific "Don" could be used if male and "Donna" if female. I am not sure if anyone has a problem with this term. If they do, I would encourage them to say so, either here or by contacting Dargorygel and myself privately, if it is actually a problem.

The use of the term "Hooker" to describe the Mafia roleblocker is well-established. It is not an implicitly gendered word - there are male and female sex workers and "Hooker" could refer to either, in theory, I would have thought. It is originally a reference to Corlear's Hook on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, which was noted in the 1820's in a report possibly attributable to the Christian Herald as "a resort for the lewd and abandoned of both sexes"... I personally know a number of sex workers and none of them would ever use this term other than in jest - however that is partly because I live in the UK and the term "hooker" is, I think I can safely say, seen by British people as very much an American word. Some people may find the reference to sex work itself distasteful, and some sites now prefer to use the entirely neutral term "Roleblocker" for a normal roleblocker of any alignment.

I hope these somewhat rambling comments are useful.
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Re: M63 Signups

#44 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:10 pm

Maniac wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:39 am
16. Maniac (he/him/his)
17. Reserved for maniac’s friend if allowed.
Is your friend a member of WebDip?

Do they have a name?

Or, are you hoping that by the time the game starts, you will have made a new friend, and be so confident of this promising new interpersonal bond that you'd be keen to immediately introduce this yet-to-be-named person to Ghug and ND?
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Re: M63 Signups

#45 Post by ghug » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:06 pm

I'm in if there's room.

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Re: M63 Signups

#46 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:50 pm

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Re: M63 Signups

#47 Post by worcej » Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:45 pm

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Re: M63 Signups

#48 Post by Maniac » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 pm

@Jamie - my real life friend is interested in Mafia and I’ll speak to them again to see if they want to join webDip and this next game. If the spot gets filled first so be it.

With regards the gender issues. I’ve been to several meeting where people state their preferred pronouns. This was new to me. I asked a friend who does this, they are transgender and they expressed that it always seems to be transgender people who start this and it is a lot of emotional baggage. They expressed that it would be good if cis-gendered people would share that baggage by introducing themselves and their pronouns and then answering the questions about why. Like here. I’m not saying everyone should do it, but if anyone joins mafia and sees some people doing it, they may feel more comfortable with stating their own preferred pronouns. It’s all about making people feel inclusive.

With regards to the points about words like Hooker and Godfather, all I’m hearing is ‘it’s always been that way therefore it should always be this way’. We as a community can change things. Nothing is cast in stone.

In no way do I mean to imply blame to Tom or anyone else. Just points for discussion.
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Re: M63 Signups

#49 Post by Tom Bombadil » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:14 pm

Maniac wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 pm
@Jamie - my real life friend is interested in Mafia and I’ll speak to them again to see if they want to join webDip and this next game. If the spot gets filled first so be it.

With regards the gender issues. I’ve been to several meeting where people state their preferred pronouns. This was new to me. I asked a friend who does this, they are transgender and they expressed that it always seems to be transgender people who start this and it is a lot of emotional baggage. They expressed that it would be good if cis-gendered people would share that baggage by introducing themselves and their pronouns and then answering the questions about why. Like here. I’m not saying everyone should do it, but if anyone joins mafia and sees some people doing it, they may feel more comfortable with stating their own preferred pronouns. It’s all about making people feel inclusive.

With regards to the points about words like Hooker and Godfather, all I’m hearing is ‘it’s always been that way therefore it should always be this way’. We as a community can change things. Nothing is cast in stone.

In no way do I mean to imply blame to Tom or anyone else. Just points for discussion.
No offense taken.

I’m particularly bad with he/him assumptions as kgray has already pointed out. It’s a habit I need to break. I’m notorious in real life for “you guys” as well. Just scold me enough times and hopefully it will lodge into my brain.

If people take offense to godfather/hooker I can change. The way I write flavor though, people may end up being characters who are different genders anyway - so I don’t think changing godfather makes sense in any case assuming they are male in the flavor.

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Re: M63 Signups

#50 Post by Chaqa » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:05 pm

Tom Bombadil wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:14 pm
Maniac wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 pm
@Jamie - my real life friend is interested in Mafia and I’ll speak to them again to see if they want to join webDip and this next game. If the spot gets filled first so be it.

With regards the gender issues. I’ve been to several meeting where people state their preferred pronouns. This was new to me. I asked a friend who does this, they are transgender and they expressed that it always seems to be transgender people who start this and it is a lot of emotional baggage. They expressed that it would be good if cis-gendered people would share that baggage by introducing themselves and their pronouns and then answering the questions about why. Like here. I’m not saying everyone should do it, but if anyone joins mafia and sees some people doing it, they may feel more comfortable with stating their own preferred pronouns. It’s all about making people feel inclusive.

With regards to the points about words like Hooker and Godfather, all I’m hearing is ‘it’s always been that way therefore it should always be this way’. We as a community can change things. Nothing is cast in stone.

In no way do I mean to imply blame to Tom or anyone else. Just points for discussion.
No offense taken.

I’m particularly bad with he/him assumptions as kgray has already pointed out. It’s a habit I need to break. I’m notorious in real life for “you guys” as well. Just scold me enough times and hopefully it will lodge into my brain.

If people take offense to godfather/hooker I can change. The way I write flavor though, people may end up being characters who are different genders anyway - so I don’t think changing godfather makes sense in any case assuming they are male in the flavor.
I don’t think The Godfather is bad. It’s an actual mafia related term with history.

“You guys” isn’t gender-specific either, at least in the northeast US. We use “you guys” or “yous guys” as a generic for a large group of people.
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Re: M63 Signups

#51 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:34 pm

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Re: M63 Signups

#52 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:35 pm

Chaqa wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:05 pm


“You guys” isn’t gender-specific either, at least in the northeast US. We use “you guys” or “yous guys” as a generic for a large group of people.
We often spell it "youse"
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Re: M63 Signups

#53 Post by President Eden » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:36 pm

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:35 pm
Chaqa wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:05 pm


“You guys” isn’t gender-specific either, at least in the northeast US. We use “you guys” or “yous guys” as a generic for a large group of people.
We often spell it "youse"
Y'all are so damn weird.
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Re: M63 Signups

#54 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:36 pm

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:35 pm
Chaqa wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:05 pm


“You guys” isn’t gender-specific either, at least in the northeast US. We use “you guys” or “yous guys” as a generic for a large group of people.
We often spell it "youse"
And I'd say it's a midatlantic phrase, I've heard it not at all since moving to New England nearly a decade ago, but heard/used it my whole childhood in the midatlantic region.
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Re: M63 Signups

#55 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:53 pm

Maniac wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 pm
@Jamie

<snip>

With regards to the points about words like Hooker and Godfather, all I’m hearing is ‘it’s always been that way therefore it should always be this way’. We as a community can change things. Nothing is cast in stone.
I'm disappointed that this is what you think I said. I'd encourage you to look at my words again, especially with regard to the term "hooker".

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Re: M63 Signups

#56 Post by ghug » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:43 am

Can I be number 19 please?

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Re: M63 Signups

#57 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:49 am

1. Bonatogether
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3. Durga
4. Chaqa
5. Aarodactyl
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7. Rdrivera2005
8. Vecna
9. Jamiet99uk
10. damo666
11. Hellenic Riot
12. ND
13. Donny Dude the Dunce.
14. Hamilton Brian
15. e.m.c.^42
16. Maniac (he/him/his)
17. Maniac's mystery companion
19. Ghug
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22.
23.

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Re: M63 Signups

#58 Post by BunnyGo » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:50 am

1. Bonatogether
2. President Eden
3. Durga
4. Chaqa
5. Aarodactyl
6. Celaph
7. Rdrivera2005
8. Vecna
9. Jamiet99uk
10. damo666
11. Hellenic Riot
12. ND
13. Donny Dude the Dunce.
14. Hamilton Brian
15. e.m.c.^42
16. Maniac (he/him/his)
17. Maniac's mystery companion
18.
19. Ghug
20.
21. BunnyGo

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Re: M63 Signups

#59 Post by Maniac » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:23 am

Tom Bombadil wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:14 pm
Maniac wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 pm
@Jamie - my real life friend is interested in Mafia and I’ll speak to them again to see if they want to join webDip and this next game. If the spot gets filled first so be it.

With regards the gender issues. I’ve been to several meeting where people state their preferred pronouns. This was new to me. I asked a friend who does this, they are transgender and they expressed that it always seems to be transgender people who start this and it is a lot of emotional baggage. They expressed that it would be good if cis-gendered people would share that baggage by introducing themselves and their pronouns and then answering the questions about why. Like here. I’m not saying everyone should do it, but if anyone joins mafia and sees some people doing it, they may feel more comfortable with stating their own preferred pronouns. It’s all about making people feel inclusive.

With regards to the points about words like Hooker and Godfather, all I’m hearing is ‘it’s always been that way therefore it should always be this way’. We as a community can change things. Nothing is cast in stone.

In no way do I mean to imply blame to Tom or anyone else. Just points for discussion.
No offense taken.

I’m particularly bad with he/him assumptions as kgray has already pointed out. It’s a habit I need to break. I’m notorious in real life for “you guys” as well. Just scold me enough times and hopefully it will lodge into my brain.

If people take offense to godfather/hooker I can change. The way I write flavor though, people may end up being characters who are different genders anyway - so I don’t think changing godfather makes sense in any case assuming they are male in the flavor.

Cheers Tom for taking comment in the spirit they were meant.

Regards people being ‘offended’, I can’t speak for everyone but I don’t think it’s about offence and more about inclusion. For example saying a game is a 21 man game isn’t offensive imho but it may not be inclusive. To illustrate this if you’d have said this is a 21 woman game there is no way in hell you would have gotten to 21 sign-ups without some men thinking ‘ah this is a woman only game’ and not signing up or asking if you actually meant 21 woman game. I suggest men wouldn’t have been offended by may have wanted to check if they were included or assumed they weren’t welcome.

I’m no expert about terms like Godfather and Hooker. But let’s run 60+ games with changing terms to Godmother, rent boy, etc and see if any male feels we are being exclusive. Or just go for gender neutral terms. I don’t but the ‘it’s the way it’s always been, therefore it the way it always has to be argument’. This is our community and we can make our own rules if we want to be better.

@Jamie - I read what you wrote. I absolutely see you as a progressive and an ally. But I still think arguments based on history, tradition, etc whilst being valid shouldn’t be the clincher. As I suggest above let’s run with the alternative gender for role names for 60+ games and then see if the community want to go full gender neutral or revert to the traditional role names or indeed run with the alternative role names. We are the community, we’re not tied to anything.
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Re: M63 Signups

#60 Post by brainbomb » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:07 pm

1. Bonatogether
2. President Eden
3. Durga
4. Chaqa
5. Aarodactyl
6. Celaph
7. Rdrivera2005
8. Vecna
9. Jamiet99uk
10. damo666
11. Hellenic Riot
12. ND
13. Donny Dude the Dunce.
14. Hamilton Brian
15. e.m.c.^42
16. Maniac (he/him/his)
17. Maniac's mystery companion
18. brainbomb
19. Ghug
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Tom does not require my services and has encouraged me to play.
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