M1015 - Super Mafioso Bros

[kgray]

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I really don't see how it was not obvious. You/bo/Jamie/HR were arguing about BP for over 2 pages when Vecna literally said he was posting something so you would stop arguing.

the mod told me to post this so you can all go back to scumhunting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRfuAukYTKg

I read this and did not associate it with a BP claim or assume the link was worth looking at, so it was not obvious to me. However, if I knew Vecna was the BP, I think it would be more obvious.

Sure, it would be more obvious. It would also be 100% clear if you clicked on the link and were familiar with the song.

[bo_sox48]

I don't see why HR/bo/Jamie couldn't have been pretending not to see the claim. I was very hung up on Jamie overlooking it but maybe it doesn't make sense for him to have been so insistent about that as scum. I can see zero reasons why scum!HR and scum!bo couldn't have reacted the way they did. They largely ignored it and that does seem a lot safer than Jamie's reaction.

Remember five seconds ago when looking for a team was bad?

[bozotheclown]

You said earlier in D2 that you thought at least one scum would vote BP for wifom. Why do you now think the entire scumteam would loudly notice the claim? I harped on people missing it, summit pointed it out explicitly, and rdr called it "obvious." Surely if we were a scumteam we'd be more discrete about it, especially since everyone else was basically ignoring it.

I said that when I did not think the BP would claim.

You, rdrivera, and summit seemed to be the only one aware of the claim, so the mafia day chat is one explanation. You 3 were also the only ones who seemed to agree with me that it was obvious the BP had been hit. Despite my original suspicions of HR, bo_sox, and Jamie for talking about other reasons for no mafia kill D1, it just seems unlikely they would also try to pretend to miss Vecna's claim as well. Maybe the scum team is a combination of the 2 groups.

I think macca also noticed the claim, although it's not clear to me if he knew what it was since he just asked for clarification.

And yes, I think it was ridiculous to even consider that the mafia ended with their kill on damo, and even moreso to suggest mafia didn't order any kill at all.

I don't see why HR/bo/Jamie couldn't have been pretending not to see the claim. I was very hung up on Jamie overlooking it but maybe it doesn't make sense for him to have been so insistent about that as scum. I can see zero reasons why scum!HR and scum!bo couldn't have reacted the way they did. They largely ignored it and that does seem a lot safer than Jamie's reaction.

I question whether any of HR/bo_sox/Jamie would both speculate that damo was the mafia target and pretend to miss Vecna's claim just to look like they did not know that the mafia hit Vecna D1, but it is possible.

[kgray]

I don't know, I keep going back and forth too. The effort seems towny on the surface, but I do think he's starting with a potential scumteam (or partners) and going backwards, looking for reasons to connect them, rather than drawing a "natural" conclusion from what's happened. But also, he's been doing that with such a wide group of people and so many combinations that it's hard to see an agenda behind it.

Why would you prefer someone go with a "natural" conclusion - i.e. not an analytically driven conclusion - as opposed to digging through the game and reading for the threads that tie people together?

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

[kgray]

I scumread most people that intentionally vote after the deadline, and I've been pretty ready to scumread you throughout most of this game. I don't have some grandiose case if that's what you're looking for. Bozo's analysis of you, summit, and kgray isn't totally crazy; it certainly isn't half as convoluted as what he was trying to pull off with HR earlier. The thing I don't get about bozo's analysis is why he doesn't connect you and HB. It's pretty hard for me not to connect you two.

If you really think he intentionally missed the deadline, I don't see why you wouldn't immediately vote for him. Of course that would be insanely scummy, there's no reason for town to do that.

There are a number of players I felt were immediately worth voting for after D2. How many votes do you believe I have?

If you think he intentionally missed the deadline why didn't you bring that up earlier? HR even mentioned rdr missing the deadline, so you had a great opportunity to say something then. Why wait until bozo makes a case on rdr?

[kgray]

I don't see why HR/bo/Jamie couldn't have been pretending not to see the claim. I was very hung up on Jamie overlooking it but maybe it doesn't make sense for him to have been so insistent about that as scum. I can see zero reasons why scum!HR and scum!bo couldn't have reacted the way they did. They largely ignored it and that does seem a lot safer than Jamie's reaction.

Remember five seconds ago when looking for a team was bad?

(1) I never said looking for a team was bad and (2) I'm not implying that you are all a team. Maybe I should have said "scum!HR OR scum!bo"

[bo_sox48]

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

If you think he intentionally missed the deadline why didn't you bring that up earlier? HR even mentioned rdr missing the deadline, so you had a great opportunity to say something then. Why wait until bozo makes a case on rdr?

Why would I? I wanted to hammer quickly, muddying the waters would make no sense.

[bozotheclown]

I don't know, I keep going back and forth too. The effort seems towny on the surface, but I do think he's starting with a potential scumteam (or partners) and going backwards, looking for reasons to connect them, rather than drawing a "natural" conclusion from what's happened. But also, he's been doing that with such a wide group of people and so many combinations that it's hard to see an agenda behind it.

Why would you prefer someone go with a "natural" conclusion - i.e. not an analytically driven conclusion - as opposed to digging through the game and reading for the threads that tie people together?

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

That may be true about the Vecna claim, but I had already suspected you,
summit, and rdrivera as a possible scum team, and particularly you and summit as scum partners. My suspicion of you and summit is based on you not following through with voting for summit D2 after summit became a bigger wagon, your and summit's avoidance of the HR wagon, and summit town reading HR and HB D2 without trying to identify any scum alternative.

[rdrivera2005]

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

Agree that there is one connection between me, Kgray and Summit: we all can read and comprehend what's written.

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I do have suspicions on Kgray, specially D1. His D2 looks better, but she could be a deep scum.
I don't give much height on her not voting Summit as he was a viable wagon for 3 minutes before EOD.

[bozotheclown]

Agree that there is one connection between me, Kgray and Summit: we all can read and comprehend what's written.

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I do have suspicions on Kgray, specially D1. His D2 looks better, but she could be a deep scum.
I don't give much height on her not voting Summit as he was a viable wagon for 3 minutes before EOD.

HB made the vote HR 4 summit 3 with 8 minutes to go, I would consider summit a viable wagon at that point. kgray followed HB's vote with a vote for HB, despite previously indicating she would vote for summit if she could not get a wagon going on me.

[rdrivera2005]

And I have visits now, hope they leave before EOD....

[kgray]

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

I don't understand what you don't understand. I think the natural scumhunting process is to read through the game and then come up with a conclusion. I think it's backwards to come up with a conclusion first and then find things in the game that support that conclusion.

[bozotheclown]

I am leaving also, I will try to be back for EOD. I think HB is town.

[kgray]

Why would you prefer someone go with a "natural" conclusion - i.e. not an analytically driven conclusion - as opposed to digging through the game and reading for the threads that tie people together?

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

That may be true about the Vecna claim, but I had already suspected you,
summit, and rdrivera as a possible scum team, and particularly you and summit as scum partners. My suspicion of you and summit is based on you not following through with voting for summit D2 after summit became a bigger wagon, your and summit's avoidance of the HR wagon, and summit town reading HR and HB D2 without trying to identify any scum alternative.

I said I would consider sheeping Vecna but in the end still went with my stronger scumread. I don't see why I should have followed through on that just because Vecna was basically townclear.

I have never intentionally avoid the HR wagon - again, I've had stronger scumreads. Summit ended D2 on HR when voting for Hamilton would have been more likely to save himselve, so I'm not sure why you keep saying he's avoiding the HR wagon.

On a related note, why does it seem like you're avoiding the Hamilton wagon?

[kgray]

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I do have suspicions on Kgray, specially D1. His D2 looks better, but she could be a deep scum.
I don't give much height on her not voting Summit as he was a viable wagon for 3 minutes before EOD.

HB made the vote HR 4 summit 3 with 8 minutes to go, I would consider summit a viable wagon at that point. kgray followed HB's vote with a vote for HB, despite previously indicating she would vote for summit if she could not get a wagon going on me.

I said I would consider it. I was trying to make my thought process clear so that we could start organizing a consensus, as I did not think HR (who was strongly in the lead) was the best flip and there were already two vanity wagons and I was adding an additional one by moving to you.

[kgray]

What you're saying is what I mean by "natural" - digging through the game and using the data to get a result. I think an analytically driven conclusion is natural. I was trying to say that I think bozo picked groups of people first, then looked for reasons to connect them - hence going "backwards."

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

I don't understand what you don't understand. I think the natural scumhunting process is to read through the game and then come up with a conclusion. I think it's backwards to come up with a conclusion first and then find things in the game that support that conclusion.

Oh - you don't understand how I came to that conclusion about bozo?

Because he linked me with two other people who vocally noticed Vecna's claim (skipping over Macca, who I do think also noticed) when that's the most NAI thing I can think of. He did address this by saying he has other reasons to suspect summit and I, but why add rdr? Because I didn't get rdr's joke on D1?

[Foxcastle]

VOTE COUNT

Hamilton Brian (6): rdrivera2005, Hellenic Riot*, kgray, bo_sox48, Jamiet99uk, Macca573
Hellenic Riot (1): Hamilton Brian
summit_fever (1): bozotheclown
Macca573 (1): summit_fever

*Denotes end vote.

Hamilton Brian is in mortal peril. Day 3 ends in less than 2 hours and 40 minutes.

[Hellenic Riot]

I said that when I did not think the BP would claim.

You, rdrivera, and summit seemed to be the only one aware of the claim, so the mafia day chat is one explanation. You 3 were also the only ones who seemed to agree with me that it was obvious the BP had been hit. Despite my original suspicions of HR, bo_sox, and Jamie for talking about other reasons for no mafia kill D1, it just seems unlikely they would also try to pretend to miss Vecna's claim as well. Maybe the scum team is a combination of the 2 groups.

I think macca also noticed the claim, although it's not clear to me if he knew what it was since he just asked for clarification.

And yes, I think it was ridiculous to even consider that the mafia ended with their kill on damo, and even moreso to suggest mafia didn't order any kill at all.

I don't see why HR/bo/Jamie couldn't have been pretending not to see the claim. I was very hung up on Jamie overlooking it but maybe it doesn't make sense for him to have been so insistent about that as scum. I can see zero reasons why scum!HR and scum!bo couldn't have reacted the way they did. They largely ignored it and that does seem a lot safer than Jamie's reaction.

I question whether any of HR/bo_sox/Jamie would both speculate that damo was the mafia target and pretend to miss Vecna's claim just to look like they did not know that the mafia hit Vecna D1, but it is possible.

Really? Didn't you spend an *entire day* pushing me entirely because of that?!

[Hellenic Riot]

For the record, I find it extremely hard to believe that scum!Bozo would have gone out on such a limb to make such an impassioned defence of scum!HB today, so I'm pretty sure Bozo is town

[Durga]

There is under an hour left in the day.