M1015 - Super Mafioso Bros

[bozotheclown]

I can see a team with Kgray and Summit (and maybe Jamiet or even HB) and I can also see HR and Bo in a scum team together. I can also see you and HB being scum together. But I think we need to try to find one scum first before the whole team.

We only have 1 mis-kill left, so if we mis-kill today, we will have to find all 3 scum consecutively to win. Identifying the first scum is hard, because we do not have any know connections to scum to work with. However, that doesn't mean we should not try.

D2, when you thought EOD was an hour earlier, you said:

Don't think we can change the result now. If HR isn't scum we lose.

Vecna is dying too. Last words?

You seemed to think that a mis-kill would be a sure defeat.

If you think that "we need to try to find one scum first", why should we not look for possible connections to identify that one scum?

Because at this points we can only make assumptions as connections. You can conclude I am connected with Kgray or with HR but without knowing any alignment I can't see how to get a conclusion out of it lime you are tryng to do.
And even the flips we have are hard to draw connections as Vecna was a clear all D2. We can look at Damo, but we already spent the whole D2 doing it. We can also look at EOD 2 to see who could have saved who or forced a tie (Bo seems to believe I intentionally voted after the deadline, which is a bit offensive but at least have some logic) but without knowing HB, HR and Summit alignment it's also a lot of speculation.

All we an do is speculate at this point.

[bozotheclown]

I am starting to agree with you. This Bozo insistence on building a whole scumteam and twisting things to fit it doesn't seems natural. And he magically forgot HR.

I don't know why everyone is not trying to identify an entire scum team.

What specifically do you think I am "twisting" to fit?

I pointed two big failures in your reasoning about Vecna claim as BP and you completely ignored it.

I believe I answered your question about that.

[kgray]

Why scum would be looking for Vecna to claim as they already knew he is BP? Also, don't you believe scum is more likely to avoid looking like they already know Vecna is BP? At least one?

Okay rivera, now you can be my spokesperson.

Do you think Bozo twisting things and making this bullshit assumptions are scum indicative or town indicative? I keep flip flopping on this. And the opportunistic Bo's entrance make wonder if Bo and HR isn't a thing.

I don't know, I keep going back and forth too. The effort seems towny on the surface, but I do think he's starting with a potential scumteam (or partners) and going backwards, looking for reasons to connect them, rather than drawing a "natural" conclusion from what's happened. But also, he's been doing that with such a wide group of people and so many combinations that it's hard to see an agenda behind it.

And yes, bo jumping in so quickly was suspicious.

[kgray]

Bozo, you don’t have me entirely convinced but I just want to say you really should have led with the investigative track you’re on now as opposed to whatever it was you were doing earlier. You’re asking much better questions.

I am convinced on rdrivera and could vote him today over HB.

You are convinced that I am scum with summit and Kgray? Did you really bought that Bozo convoluted thinking?

Or if you have an own reason to scumread me state it.

I scumread most people that intentionally vote after the deadline, and I've been pretty ready to scumread you throughout most of this game. I don't have some grandiose case if that's what you're looking for. Bozo's analysis of you, summit, and kgray isn't totally crazy; it certainly isn't half as convoluted as what he was trying to pull off with HR earlier. The thing I don't get about bozo's analysis is why he doesn't connect you and HB. It's pretty hard for me not to connect you two.

If you really think he intentionally missed the deadline, I don't see why you wouldn't immediately vote for him. Of course that would be insanely scummy, there's no reason for town to do that.

[Hamilton Brian]

We are taking my nephew out for his birthday today, so it's going to be very difficult to check in.

I see I am still leading; it's too bad but also an effect of me not being able to explain myself clearly and efficiently. My vote will remain on HR. I believe wholeheartedly that they would be the first of the three mafia we need to reveal.

If I am the mis-kill today, good luck the rest of the way.

[bozotheclown]

Why scum would be looking for Vecna to claim as they already knew he is BP? Also, don't you believe scum is more likely to avoid looking like they already know Vecna is BP? At least one?

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

Agree that there is one connection between me, Kgray and Summit: we all can read and comprehend what's written.

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

[kgray]

I looked into the discussion of Vecna's BP claim, and it seems like kgray, summit, and rdrivera were all aware of the claim fairly early. kgray was questioning players for not seeing the claim, rdrivera called it obvious without the link, and summit was the first to directly state Vecna had claimed. Jamie and HR said they missed the claim because they do not open links, bo_sox said he thought it was easy to miss, HB missed the claim, and I am not sure if Macca is aware of the claim. I also missed the claim because I typically do not open links, and I had read Vecna's post about getting something from the mods without thinking the link was going to be something important, I think it just sounded like a joke. With the mafia day chat, if one scum saw the claim they all would know, and the mafia also knew they had hit Vecna, so they would be looking for Vecna to claim, so I think this supports the possibility of a kgray/summit/rdrivera scum team.

Why scum would be looking for Vecna to claim as they already knew he is BP? Also, don't you believe scum is more likely to avoid looking like they already know Vecna is BP? At least one?

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

You said earlier in D2 that you thought at least one scum would vote BP for wifom. Why do you now think the entire scumteam would loudly notice the claim? I harped on people missing it, summit pointed it out explicitly, and rdr called it "obvious." Surely if we were a scumteam we'd be more discrete about it, especially since everyone else was basically ignoring it.

[kgray]

This post probably means Jamie is town if summit is mafia. That would mean kgray/summit/rdrivera is the most likely scum team if kgray changed her mind about voting for summit D2 because they are both mafia.

I don't see how this makes Jamie town if summit is mafia. Why do you think scum!summit would be unlikely to list a partner as a townread?

Yes, I do think summit would be unlikely to make a scum partner one of his first 2 town reads D1.

I said "why" but okay.

[kgray]

Here is where the kgray/rdrivera D1 mutual voting began. It probably should be obvious enough that at least the second part of rdrivera's post was a joke that kgray should not need to ask.

It was very obvious that the second part of the post was a joke. That's why I asked if the whole post was a joke. The first sentence looked sincere to me.

OK, it still seems like a strong reaction.

I don't think it is at all. It was an objectively terrible plan. To think it's a good idea, you'd have to think that zero members of the scumteam would check the game between when Jamie said it and when we could get enough end votes, not to mention the fact that the end votes were for someone who'd already posted. I don't see how town!rdr ever thinks that would be a "good" idea. Never.

[kgray]

I've made my suspicions of Bozo very clear today. Aren't you reading my posts?

I am, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the two main reasons you gave are his inactivity prior to today, which I agree is scummy from bozo, and his focus on "odd interactions" between you and HB. I do agree with him that if HB is scum he could implicate you through no fault of your own, but I also think most of HB's interactions can be characterized as odd so I see your point.

But I wanted to discuss bozo further because although D3 so far is more along the lines of what I was expecting from town!bozo, I can't get over the fact that he spent all of D2 talking about BP and mafia kills. At EOD he was online and brought up the same argument he'd been having with HR the whole phase but otherwise didn't contribute at all. Now he's going carefully through everyone else's votes and it's sort of convenient that we can't do the same with his. I'm trying to decide if this is alignment indicative.

Why can't you consider my votes, I voted D1 and D2?

Obviously I was referring to the fact that you stayed on HR all day and didn't participate in the last-minute EOD voting despite you being online. Also, thanks for reminding me that you also avoiding moving your vote around D1.

[bozotheclown]

Why scum would be looking for Vecna to claim as they already knew he is BP? Also, don't you believe scum is more likely to avoid looking like they already know Vecna is BP? At least one?

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

You said earlier in D2 that you thought at least one scum would vote BP for wifom. Why do you now think the entire scumteam would loudly notice the claim? I harped on people missing it, summit pointed it out explicitly, and rdr called it "obvious." Surely if we were a scumteam we'd be more discrete about it, especially since everyone else was basically ignoring it.

I said that when I did not think the BP would claim.

You, rdrivera, and summit seemed to be the only one aware of the claim, so the mafia day chat is one explanation. You 3 were also the only ones who seemed to agree with me that it was obvious the BP had been hit. Despite my original suspicions of HR, bo_sox, and Jamie for talking about other reasons for no mafia kill D1, it just seems unlikely they would also try to pretend to miss Vecna's claim as well. Maybe the scum team is a combination of the 2 groups.

[bozotheclown]

I don't see how this makes Jamie town if summit is mafia. Why do you think scum!summit would be unlikely to list a partner as a townread?

Yes, I do think summit would be unlikely to make a scum partner one of his first 2 town reads D1.

I said "why" but okay.

I think he would be more likely to pocket town there and distance from scum.

[kgray]

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

Agree that there is one connection between me, Kgray and Summit: we all can read and comprehend what's written.

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I really don't see how it was not obvious. You/bo/Jamie/HR were arguing about BP for over 2 pages when Vecna literally said he was posting something so you would stop arguing.

[bozotheclown]

It was very obvious that the second part of the post was a joke. That's why I asked if the whole post was a joke. The first sentence looked sincere to me.

OK, it still seems like a strong reaction.

I don't think it is at all. It was an objectively terrible plan. To think it's a good idea, you'd have to think that zero members of the scumteam would check the game between when Jamie said it and when we could get enough end votes, not to mention the fact that the end votes were for someone who'd already posted. I don't see how town!rdr ever thinks that would be a "good" idea. Never.

So do you now accept that it was a joke?

[bozotheclown]

Agree that there is one connection between me, Kgray and Summit: we all can read and comprehend what's written.

Yes, this is possible, but I missed Vecna's claim, so I do not think it was as obvious as you and kgray made it out to be.

I have included you with kgray and summit more by POE than anything else. What do you think of kgray not following through with voting for summit after summit became a more viable wagon?

I really don't see how it was not obvious. You/bo/Jamie/HR were arguing about BP for over 2 pages when Vecna literally said he was posting something so you would stop arguing.

the mod told me to post this so you can all go back to scumhunting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRfuAukYTKg

I read this and did not associate it with a BP claim or assume the link was worth looking at, so it was not obvious to me. However, if I knew Vecna was the BP, I think it would be more obvious.

[kgray]

The scum would be reading Vecna's posts knowing he is the BP, so they would be more likely to pick up on his claim.

At first I thought it was likely someone was pretending to miss Vecna's claim, but I missed it, so maybe not. It is a connection between you, kgray, and summit.

You said earlier in D2 that you thought at least one scum would vote BP for wifom. Why do you now think the entire scumteam would loudly notice the claim? I harped on people missing it, summit pointed it out explicitly, and rdr called it "obvious." Surely if we were a scumteam we'd be more discrete about it, especially since everyone else was basically ignoring it.

I said that when I did not think the BP would claim.

You, rdrivera, and summit seemed to be the only one aware of the claim, so the mafia day chat is one explanation. You 3 were also the only ones who seemed to agree with me that it was obvious the BP had been hit. Despite my original suspicions of HR, bo_sox, and Jamie for talking about other reasons for no mafia kill D1, it just seems unlikely they would also try to pretend to miss Vecna's claim as well. Maybe the scum team is a combination of the 2 groups.

I think macca also noticed the claim, although it's not clear to me if he knew what it was since he just asked for clarification.

And yes, I think it was ridiculous to even consider that the mafia ended with their kill on damo, and even moreso to suggest mafia didn't order any kill at all.

I don't see why HR/bo/Jamie couldn't have been pretending not to see the claim. I was very hung up on Jamie overlooking it but maybe it doesn't make sense for him to have been so insistent about that as scum. I can see zero reasons why scum!HR and scum!bo couldn't have reacted the way they did. They largely ignored it and that does seem a lot safer than Jamie's reaction.

[kgray]

OK, it still seems like a strong reaction.

I don't think it is at all. It was an objectively terrible plan. To think it's a good idea, you'd have to think that zero members of the scumteam would check the game between when Jamie said it and when we could get enough end votes, not to mention the fact that the end votes were for someone who'd already posted. I don't see how town!rdr ever thinks that would be a "good" idea. Never.

So do you now accept that it was a joke?

Yes. I said so here:

I guess I still don't read "this idea isn't bad" as a joke. I think it was a pretty flawed idea from the start and I'm surprised you'd even give it that amount of legitimacy.

The "this is isn't a bad idea" is to killing Bo and a joke. But like I said, when you have to explain a joke twice it's because it's a really really bad joke.

Oh, you agreed with "let's kill bo," not "let's hammer so scum don't have time to put in a kill order?" Got it.

[bo_sox48]

I don't know, I keep going back and forth too. The effort seems towny on the surface, but I do think he's starting with a potential scumteam (or partners) and going backwards, looking for reasons to connect them, rather than drawing a "natural" conclusion from what's happened. But also, he's been doing that with such a wide group of people and so many combinations that it's hard to see an agenda behind it.

Why would you prefer someone go with a "natural" conclusion - i.e. not an analytically driven conclusion - as opposed to digging through the game and reading for the threads that tie people together?

[bo_sox48]

Bozo, you don’t have me entirely convinced but I just want to say you really should have led with the investigative track you’re on now as opposed to whatever it was you were doing earlier. You’re asking much better questions.

I am convinced on rdrivera and could vote him today over HB.

Are the questions better because they do not involve you? I am looking at everyone as possible scum. Just looking at the D2 EOD voting, you still look suspicious, but I tend to believe the scum team is being more subtle.

Partly, yes. The questions are better because you're actually going down a path worth following as opposed to targeting two obvious VTs on a theory that is easily shrugged off as nonsense. I am one of those two obvious VTs.

This post probably means Jamie is town if summit is mafia. That would mean kgray/summit/rdrivera is the most likely scum team if kgray changed her mind about voting for summit D2 because they are both mafia.

I don't see how this makes Jamie town if summit is mafia. Why do you think scum!summit would be unlikely to list a partner as a townread?

Yes, I do think summit would be unlikely to make a scum partner one of his first 2 town reads D1.

In this setup, I disagree. Bussing early is a very poor strategy when you could win with as few as two miskills. If I could help get my partners townread D1, I’d be all for it.

[bo_sox48]

You are convinced that I am scum with summit and Kgray? Did you really bought that Bozo convoluted thinking?

Or if you have an own reason to scumread me state it.

I scumread most people that intentionally vote after the deadline, and I've been pretty ready to scumread you throughout most of this game. I don't have some grandiose case if that's what you're looking for. Bozo's analysis of you, summit, and kgray isn't totally crazy; it certainly isn't half as convoluted as what he was trying to pull off with HR earlier. The thing I don't get about bozo's analysis is why he doesn't connect you and HB. It's pretty hard for me not to connect you two.

If you really think he intentionally missed the deadline, I don't see why you wouldn't immediately vote for him. Of course that would be insanely scummy, there's no reason for town to do that.

There are a number of players I felt were immediately worth voting for after D2. How many votes do you believe I have?