Mafia 56: Scout Camp

[rdrivera2005]

Rather than trying to take a vote on who supports or opposes a PR vs. VT mass claim, I am going to maintain a list of everyone who has opposed it to try to accelerate getting a consensus.

First, the reasons I think a D1 PR vs. VT mass claim is a benefit to town:

1. It will either give us 8 town clears or give us easily identifiable scum who have claimed PR.

2. It will prevent scum from making PR claims to avoid getting lynched.

3. It makes sure we know when a PR has been NKed so that scum will not be able to make PR claims late in the game when we would have no way of verifying if the claims are true.

4. Late in the game, the mafia is going to have enough information about buddy pairs to make reasonable guesses about town/town pairs, which means town can't afford too many mislynches to start the game. This makes narrowing down the lynch pool important to give town our best chance of winning.

Expressed opposition to mass claim:

I already stated in the signups I would hardveto a massclaim. So lets not waste 30 pages discussing the merits abd just play proper mafia instead of what the setup

I already stated in the signups I would hardveto a massclaim. So lets not waste 30 pages discussing the merits abd just play proper mafia instead of what the setup

Agreed.

So far one common thread had been the debate over mass claims which I think is a terrible idea. The double buddy NK means letting mafia figure out who the buddy pairs are very dangerous. Finding out who the buddyless people are through PR claims are an easy way for them to narrow the list down and get a couple double NKs which could be potentially lethal to our ability to win. I'm in favor of playing the game without a mass claim where we gain little useful info.

I don't like massclaims on theory, but you are right that a massclaim or a PR/VT claim favours town on this game. I only fear some town refuse to claim and turn it into a bad option.

[damo666]

I think Bozo is right.

I am gonna ko the massclaim

I am not a PR

[damo666]

All mass claim supporters should claim to put pressure on others.

And no, this is not a scummy post, please refer to Nozo and rdr posts.

[damo666]

##vote worcej

[damo666]

I townread FB despite oppo to mass claim

[damo666]

Xorxes brain and Bozo all probtown

[damo666]

I've been scum the last 3 games. I'm so pleased that I have something to solve this time.

[Vecna]

Notes on the setup and general hints on how to approach this for our newer players:

-Under no circumstance claim your buddy in the thread

-There is a 5/13 chance that your buddy is scum (scout master not having a buddy and you knowing your own alignment make it so). Those odds are significant. Use cautious suspicion and do not be too quick to trust any reads there straight away.

-Do not tell your buddy your role. Do not let your buddy convince you that it is in your best interest to do so. Mafia will try to use the buddy chats to gather information and make strategies to permanently turn off certain roles via their roleblock and switch abilities.

-If you are an investigative role, determine for yourself when and if you want to trust your buddy. Gather some good information first! THEN after you have significant intel that can help us, share it with your buddy. Make him tell the thread so that scum cannot kill or roleblock you! Having only one result is generally too little to out, but make a good judgement on how likely it is you are going to be mislynched or nightkilled.

-Also do not share info on whether your action failed initially with your buddy. If they are scum, this will help them narrow down everyone's role.

-Scoutmaster: Since you do not have a buddy. gather information for as long as possible. Choose different targets to do your watching for you. Do not make it too obvious that you are waiting for your watcher to reveal the outcome. Use an end of night information dump-post one minute before deadline of night to share the information when you have enough of it.

-Senior patrol leader: One of our most important roles. Use good judgement, but beware: For your results to be usefull, the pairs have to be outted. Which means scum can kill them straight away. If you can stay alive long enough, you might be able to break the setup wide open. Dont shoot your load too early.

-Quartermaster: Your role can very well be detrimental to town, unless you luckily get paired up with the senior patrol leader. The odds of that happening are astonishingly low. It might be best if you just do not share your info, since its more likely to benefit scum than town, especially early on

-First aid and troop cool guys: Little advise to give. Use proper judgement. Beware using those roleblocks in the early game since they are much more likely to harm town than scum. Lategame they can be used to stop a nightkill and be devastating to scum. Using the roleblock properly is your strongest tool if done properly. The odds of you dying on the night you are predicting is low. Scum are unlikely to play predictably this game.

-Good patrol leader: Please, put your switch to B as soon as you can. Getting false guilties for town is nowhere near as bad as getting false clears. One creates a mislynch, the other is likely to lose town the entire game. Those scum roles are unlikely to do anything in the early game, but disabling the lawyer is much more usefull than disabling the other role. Getting townclears will help break scum fake-claiming in the lategame.

[rdrivera2005]

Notes on the setup and general hints on how to approach this for our newer players:

-Under no circumstance claim your buddy in the thread

-There is a 5/13 chance that your buddy is scum (scout master not having a buddy and you knowing your own alignment make it so). Those odds are significant. Use cautious suspicion and do not be too quick to trust any reads there straight away.

-Do not tell your buddy your role. Do not let your buddy convince you that it is in your best interest to do so. Mafia will try to use the buddy chats to gather information and make strategies to permanently turn off certain roles via their roleblock and switch abilities.

-If you are an investigative role, determine for yourself when and if you want to trust your buddy. Gather some good information first! THEN after you have significant intel that can help us, share it with your buddy. Make him tell the thread so that scum cannot kill or roleblock you! Having only one result is generally too little to out, but make a good judgement on how likely it is you are going to be mislynched or nightkilled.

-Also do not share info on whether your action failed initially with your buddy. If they are scum, this will help them narrow down everyone's role.

-Scoutmaster: Since you do not have a buddy. gather information for as long as possible. Choose different targets to do your watching for you. Do not make it too obvious that you are waiting for your watcher to reveal the outcome. Use an end of night information dump-post one minute before deadline of night to share the information when you have enough of it.

-Senior patrol leader: One of our most important roles. Use good judgement, but beware: For your results to be usefull, the pairs have to be outted. Which means scum can kill them straight away. If you can stay alive long enough, you might be able to break the setup wide open. Dont shoot your load too early.

-Quartermaster: Your role can very well be detrimental to town, unless you luckily get paired up with the senior patrol leader. The odds of that happening are astonishingly low. It might be best if you just do not share your info, since its more likely to benefit scum than town, especially early on

-First aid and troop cool guys: Little advise to give. Use proper judgement. Beware using those roleblocks in the early game since they are much more likely to harm town than scum. Lategame they can be used to stop a nightkill and be devastating to scum. Using the roleblock properly is your strongest tool if done properly. The odds of you dying on the night you are predicting is low. Scum are unlikely to play predictably this game.

-Good patrol leader: Please, put your switch to B as soon as you can. Getting false guilties for town is nowhere near as bad as getting false clears. One creates a mislynch, the other is likely to lose town the entire game. Those scum roles are unlikely to do anything in the early game, but disabling the lawyer is much more usefull than disabling the other role. Getting townclears will help break scum fake-claiming in the lategame.

That's a great post, specially considering how many newbies we have on this game.

[Vecna]

"When a player is sent home, their full role will not be revealed. Their alignment (dirty/clean) will be revealed, but their powers (if they have any) will not be revealed."

This is why we should mass claim PR or VT D1. Depending on how many players claim PR, we can decide the best time for PRs to claim their exact role to quickly eliminate any scum claiming PR.

The fact bozo brings this up while he knows plenty of people have vetoed it, and uses this weak logic to defend it (why give scum a 100% roleblock and NK accuracy?)......it just feels like he wants to see which players will go against him passionately since those are usually the town PRs

Just dont respond people. The massclaim idea is dead since im hard vetoing it regardless. A hardclaim is pointless if some people are not going to claim. Ill literally get lynched before doing it.

[TheMadMonarch]

Notes on the setup and general hints on how to approach this for our newer players:

-Under no circumstance claim your buddy in the thread

-There is a 5/13 chance that your buddy is scum (scout master not having a buddy and you knowing your own alignment make it so). Those odds are significant. Use cautious suspicion and do not be too quick to trust any reads there straight away.

-Do not tell your buddy your role. Do not let your buddy convince you that it is in your best interest to do so. Mafia will try to use the buddy chats to gather information and make strategies to permanently turn off certain roles via their roleblock and switch abilities.

-If you are an investigative role, determine for yourself when and if you want to trust your buddy. Gather some good information first! THEN after you have significant intel that can help us, share it with your buddy. Make him tell the thread so that scum cannot kill or roleblock you! Having only one result is generally too little to out, but make a good judgement on how likely it is you are going to be mislynched or nightkilled.

-Also do not share info on whether your action failed initially with your buddy. If they are scum, this will help them narrow down everyone's role.

-Scoutmaster: Since you do not have a buddy. gather information for as long as possible. Choose different targets to do your watching for you. Do not make it too obvious that you are waiting for your watcher to reveal the outcome. Use an end of night information dump-post one minute before deadline of night to share the information when you have enough of it.

-Senior patrol leader: One of our most important roles. Use good judgement, but beware: For your results to be usefull, the pairs have to be outted. Which means scum can kill them straight away. If you can stay alive long enough, you might be able to break the setup wide open. Dont shoot your load too early.

-Quartermaster: Your role can very well be detrimental to town, unless you luckily get paired up with the senior patrol leader. The odds of that happening are astonishingly low. It might be best if you just do not share your info, since its more likely to benefit scum than town, especially early on

-First aid and troop cool guys: Little advise to give. Use proper judgement. Beware using those roleblocks in the early game since they are much more likely to harm town than scum. Lategame they can be used to stop a nightkill and be devastating to scum. Using the roleblock properly is your strongest tool if done properly. The odds of you dying on the night you are predicting is low. Scum are unlikely to play predictably this game.

-Good patrol leader: Please, put your switch to B as soon as you can. Getting false guilties for town is nowhere near as bad as getting false clears. One creates a mislynch, the other is likely to lose town the entire game. Those scum roles are unlikely to do anything in the early game, but disabling the lawyer is much more usefull than disabling the other role. Getting townclears will help break scum fake-claiming in the lategame.

Thanks!

[Vecna]

True, I forgot the no role reveal. But I think scum will also not know what roles the NK had, so it will be hard for them to claim a PR.

I hate mass claims, first and foremost, so take that into consideration as I address this:

I imagine we will generate a group of people claiming PR, which will be higher than 8, and also a group of non-PRs, forcing the lynches in the non-PR group as the scum kill off PR players.

This situation reminds me of the Kitsune game - where we had people claim PR or not-PR. I intentionally claimed PR as a scum GF to try to muddy the waters. My gut says 2/5 'dirty boys' will claim PR to hide out in as they slowly thin the town PR claims.

The more scum claiming PR, the better.

This is also false logic.

Scum can just claim medic and camp cool guy. (1/3 chance of them to get lynched in that group).

And the other 3 claim VT (3 in a pool of 10 so also 30% chance).

Right now, scum is 5/20 players. We increase our odds of lynching scum by 5-8% by sacrificing nearly all PR potential we have. A very bad deal. On top of ruining another mafia game by making it boring.

[Vecna]

If we claim the exact role they can't do that. Only the Doc A and B should claim only Doc to have a 50/50 to not be roleblocked.

Right, so forcing our PR's to expose themselves (minus a letter for some of them) is worth it for 8 clears and 12 unknowns?

If you're willing to do that, why don't we just no lynch and claim our buddies? Scum can slowly pick off two of us and narrow down the pool that way instead.

I assume this is a joke.

Also, bozo is feeling extremely tone-dead and is likely scum this game

[JF1981]

That was super helpful! :)

[Vecna]

##unvote brainbomb

##vote xorxes

For the same reason I changes it last time.

You know too much and it's scary.

Yeah, quite happy with that early call on Macca

Does that mean you agree with me? Or don't trust me?

Im weakly agreeing with you, but for different reasons. I think your reasoning is pure though, and I think youre town for calling it out in the way you did.

[BobMcBob]

I personally am unsure how you managed to pull the number 8 out of thin air. Because of the A/B roles we can't actually confirm half the PRs and mafia can pull the switches to decide which ones work. What exactly am I missing?

8 town players have unique roles (PRs), 7 town players are VT. If all mafia claim to be VTs, the 8 PRs are all clear, the A/B roles do not matter. If a mafia claims to be a town PR, and later claim to be an FAE or TCG, they will be counterclaimed by the real FAEs and TCGs, which is not a good situation for the mafia either, especially if they NK in the PRs and hit one of the CCs.

Okay thanks, this makes more sense now. I can see where those who want to masclaim are coming from now. Except... They can't accidentally NK a CC if they've already CC'd. They'll know exactly who to avoid. Also... Are you forgetting the fact that only alignment flips and not role on purpose? We can't know if they really did hit a PR. I still don't think mass claiming is an amazing idea.

[Vecna]

##vote Bozo

[JF1981]

Interesting how people can vote so early to have someone out when very little is discernible from the chat in my opinion

its essentially economic game theory tied in with diplomacy- i like the concept

with little info available from my partner (who might be a scumbag (not sure what term we are using!) anyway?)... I lean towards thinking those voting early being the baddies

[Vecna]

For those that have been playing this for a long time, quite a bit is discernible from just the chat (or so they want to make themselves believe at leasT). Thats what this game is all about. You cannot just wait and sit around for stuff to happen. You make it happen yourself by ruffling feathers and creating discussion to determine which people are honestly trying to figure shit out, and which people are just bullshitting around to try and appear as such.

[BobMcBob]

If I'm going to place reads today, I'm unfortunately going to have to start by sheeping Vecna somewhat. But that's probably okay, because he is giving off serious Towny vibes. Also, the massive tips post was long, but as far as I could tell the tips were all good.

Bozo does seem really odd this game. I really don't like his approach to the massclaim, he's overlooking some fairly obvious points. Going scum on him.

I'm not feeling too bar about worcej actually. If you look closely, his "all no-lynch and claim pairs" thing was actually making fun of the massclaim. After stating that he was opposed to the massclaim he said "why not just (insert obviously worse idea here)" to show his thoughts on it. And if he didn't seriously intend on doing it, why would he make sure to check his numbers were accurate? Not sure he's not scum, but not enough to vote him.

I'm okay with emc voting early, after getting himself modkilled (twice?) in recent games. A meta change is not necessarily indicative of scum , and personally I think we should encourage him by at least not lynching him D1.

I was pretty sure I had views on bb, but can't remember what the basis was exactly. I do remember I was leaning town though, he seems his average, toxic, noisy town self (keep in mind I don't think I've played with scum brain before).