MAFIA 51 - LONDON BY GASLIGHT [HIDDEN]

[Vecna]

yeah your counter to what I said about the potential that this is VT Chaqa really is strong @Xorxes

I guess, and perhaps it is noteworthy to mention even in my longer post above, I have trouble articulating or even conceiving why a scum would do this though. If he is scum, he had to know that Jekyll wasn't going to make it long. Why choose that role to fake claim? Why put yourself in a position where the real Jekyll would counter pretty much guaranteed by end of day #3. Then when that does happen (me) he drops the CC? I guess, a possible answer is he is on Moriarity's team and he knows that if he continued the CC whether or not he got lynched first or I did that he was going to die and his team would then be at 1/3. Maybe he thought the best play was to backtrack and attempt to preserve his life to maintain his team's chance at success?

I have trouble imagining why any alignment would fakeclaim Jekyll.

One possible guess is that he expected the claim would make him survive at least until D3, since neither Jack, nor the opposing Mafia, nor town would target him, while giving him clout to direct town's lynches, and then just retract when the real Jekyll claimed. If it was a well considered town strategy as he claims, he has not demonstrated any results. It would have been more believable if he had said he did it just for laughs and then it got out of hand, or something like that, but then why not retract immediately after you claimed?

Also, scum likely wants to know who J&H is since they actually might want to keep him alive to increase the number of kills, create more chaos and win with him in the long run. Make him CC you and then retract in a good way under a guise of "trying to win information".

Pretty likely to have at least one of your team survive to a 4way nightphase in this type of setup, where you can just claim and coordinate kills with Hyde.

[BionicMole]

I didn’t think to mention the message that Hyde didn’t kill because it was obvious that no one died. Come on now, you can do better than that, ND.

If I were fake claiming, why wouldn’t Hyde have just killed ME?

ND is full of crap.

Did you get targeted last night?

Can you be more specific?

My best bet is that Hyde targeted me, which was protected by my self-heal. As to why he would do this... I have no idea.

@Chaqa, I understand the first quote, if you were fake claiming Hyde would kill you. But the second quote , if you had the self heal and are in fact Jekyll, Hyde (who knows who you are) would not waste his kill on you because it would fail automatically.

[damo666]

I despair.

[damo666]

@ND if you decide to vote Chaqa I will sheep you. Would you mind deciding soonish because this Chaqa stuff has completely derailed the day and if Chaqa's gonna go we get no VCA we may as well hammer.

[BionicMole]

Can you be more specific?

My best bet is that Hyde targeted me, which was protected by my self-heal. As to why he would do this... I have no idea.

Is there a scenario where Hyde targets Jekyll when he knows Jekyll's identity and knows it will automatically fail?

Hyde does know Jekyll's identity and knows he can't kill Jekyll, so the only reason for Hyde to target him is if he wanted to withhold his NK.

Exactly, Chaqa's claim looks like a sieve...

[CmdrLikely]

Eliminating a town doc save today when Hyde will not be active tonight makes zero sense. Also, ND has stopped his annoying persona after his claim, and in any case lynching town because they're annoying is not pro-town.

Neither ND or Chaqa are town! They are town-liabilities. It's pedantic, but I want to clarify I'm not saying lynch ND "because he's annoying". I'm just prioritizing abitrarily. Maybe that does look not pro-town. I'm totally fine switching it.

##vote Chaqa

I get the feeling you did not see that Chaqa has retracted his Jekyll claim, so now ND is unCCed Jekyll, and the question is if Chaqa fake claimed as mafia or fake claimed as town.

@ND - I didn’t mean to say Hyde couldn’t kill untilN3. If you go back, I comment that I omitted an “again” accidentally.

As I said - lynch me. It’s honestly pro-town.

If you think we should still lynch you it makes me wonder why you retracted when you did. If you thought there was something to be learned from continuing your counterclaim, why not continue it all day for maximum affect, then when you flip town it would generate a lot of discussion.

Bozo, I saw Chaqa retract. That doesn't mean to me that we should not Lynch him. Are you saying his retraction makes him town? He could still be any other non-town role imo.

I'll summarize what I've been failing to say then put my foot back into my mouth and sit quietly:
Town is winning. We don't need to take any risks, looking for an "optimal" play. If we can trade a doctor for a scum, it's still winning. If we take a risk and make a mistake, that is what scum wants. End of message.

goodnight

[BunnyGo]

@Hosuke where you at? Don’t get modkilled

@Kalel where’s the spreadsheet goodness?

[bozotheclown]

Neither ND or Chaqa are town! They are town-liabilities. It's pedantic, but I want to clarify I'm not saying lynch ND "because he's annoying". I'm just prioritizing abitrarily. Maybe that does look not pro-town. I'm totally fine switching it.

##vote Chaqa

I get the feeling you did not see that Chaqa has retracted his Jekyll claim, so now ND is unCCed Jekyll, and the question is if Chaqa fake claimed as mafia or fake claimed as town.

@ND - I didn’t mean to say Hyde couldn’t kill untilN3. If you go back, I comment that I omitted an “again” accidentally.

As I said - lynch me. It’s honestly pro-town.

If you think we should still lynch you it makes me wonder why you retracted when you did. If you thought there was something to be learned from continuing your counterclaim, why not continue it all day for maximum affect, then when you flip town it would generate a lot of discussion.

Bozo, I saw Chaqa retract. That doesn't mean to me that we should not Lynch him. Are you saying his retraction makes him town? He could still be any other non-town role imo.

I'll summarize what I've been failing to say then put my foot back into my mouth and sit quietly:
Town is winning. We don't need to take any risks, looking for an "optimal" play. If we can trade a doctor for a scum, it's still winning. If we take a risk and make a mistake, that is what scum wants. End of message.

goodnight

OK, I misunderstood what you meant then when you said "Neither ND or Chaqa are town". Also, I am not saying we should not lynch Chaqa, I am still voting for him.

[CmdrLikely]

I get the feeling you did not see that Chaqa has retracted his Jekyll claim, so now ND is unCCed Jekyll, and the question is if Chaqa fake claimed as mafia or fake claimed as town.

If you think we should still lynch you it makes me wonder why you retracted when you did. If you thought there was something to be learned from continuing your counterclaim, why not continue it all day for maximum affect, then when you flip town it would generate a lot of discussion.

Bozo, I saw Chaqa retract. That doesn't mean to me that we should not Lynch him. Are you saying his retraction makes him town? He could still be any other non-town role imo.

I'll summarize what I've been failing to say then put my foot back into my mouth and sit quietly:
Town is winning. We don't need to take any risks, looking for an "optimal" play. If we can trade a doctor for a scum, it's still winning. If we take a risk and make a mistake, that is what scum wants. End of message.

goodnight

OK, I misunderstood what you meant then when you said "Neither ND or Chaqa are town". Also, I am not saying we should not lynch Chaqa, I am still voting for him.

Ohhh ok yes you're right. That wording I chose is very misleading now that you mentioned it. I meant we should write them off as non-town and make deductions based on that. Sure, they can help with scum hunting and Doctor Jekyll can use his ability today and hopefully tomorrow, but after that, we should kiss them goodbye.

[BionicMole]

For those watching me catch up in real time
##unvote

[ND]

eh ##vote Chaqa

[bozotheclown]

Why are you pretending that it was linked to the events that followed afterwards?

The question is why did you vote for Chaqa when he was the unCCed Jekyll on D2 when Hyde did not have a NK again until N3?

In Vecna’s defense (blegh) he did explain himself. Are you being lazy or not really doing iso and throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks?

Vecna never answered my question from the beginning of D1, but I see now he did address it in a response to xorxes.

[BionicMole]

I had no impressions?

I mean, I read the role before I read the game, so I wasn’t exactly focusing on what vapor said since I already knew my role. One less person to deduce.

This is what I mean, your literally an empty suit, you have nothing, your not committing to anything, do you see why it looks so slippery??

Get off his nuts man. What do you expect him to say about this? Do you want him to tell you what it is ffs? Why aren't you asking everyone else what their reactions are when they read their roll? Climb out of the rabbit hole

[Tom Bombadil]

What an oddly angry post.

Mole - what is your read on Flav? What is your read on me?

[KalelChase]

@Hosuke where you at? Don’t get modkilled

@Kalel where’s the spreadsheet goodness?

Had to stay late at work (actually had to go in the office). I've read through the whole thing, but had to go back to mid-50 pages on the spreadsheet. Working it now, but it has been mostly ND vs. Chaqa back n forth.

And as long as I'm at it...

ND, this one is for you...

https://giphy.com/gifs/superman-ok-R8MIGe47XWx68

[BunnyGo]

My case against lynching Jekyll:

I know that most players here (and even Jekyll himself) are planning on voting to lynch him tomorrow, but I'd like to take advantage of my Drunk Bunny (TM) state to explain as best I can why I think this is a mistake. Before I do, let me clearly articulate what I see as the plusses and minuses of having ND around as Jekyll:

Pluses:

1) Jekyll is a townclear
2) Jekyll has a heal that cannot be role blocked
3) ND is a good player
4) Jekyll is immune to Jack (less important now that Jack won't target him)


Minuses:

A) Hyde is trying to make sure Town loses
B) Hyde kills an extra player every other night (and Jekyll isn't likely to be RB again)
C) ND is even more annoying than I am


So, with that all spelled out clearly, why do I value not lynching ND? Mostly, the townclear value. But I think in this game we've been *very* lucky so far to not have any night kills succeed. We should start seeing up to 4 (FOUR!) deaths a day. That's just 2-3 more days before we are in late endgame situation. That's only 1 more Hyde kill in that time, vs all the good a smart doctor townclear can buy us.

In addition, with only a few days left to the game, can we really afford to waste a lynch ON A TOWNCLEAR?! I know we're going to have mislynches. We probably will have one today, but can we afford another tomorrow? I don't think so.

Meanwhile, I think it's not so clear that Jekyll isn't a net town asset, and the scum should waste their NK getting rid of a townclear and town asset. We should not make it easy for them. We should preserve our (VERY) limited number of lynches (count guys...we either need lots of scum help or to get 6 more lynches CORRECT) and target them accurately.

I think there are also many situations where we get down to just a few players left. Having a doctor towncleared among them is WORTH the insane NK.


In summary, I will *not* be voting to lynch ND tomorrow. I hope none of you do either.

[BunnyGo]

ND, this one is for you...

https://giphy.com/gifs/superman-ok-R8MIGe47XWx68

Very well put.

[BunnyGo]

Now...Drunk Bunny (TM) is going to go do some ISOs and post thoughts here. If there's anybody you want me to focus on, let me know and I'll do my best. Otherwise, I'm going to focus on my scummiest leans.

[BionicMole]

Because Jekyll is dying tonight that iss why, why are we doing the mafia's dirty work for them

You've said this about a dozen times already, is it you slipping your next NK vote?
I'm starting to lean you that way ngl

[bo_sox48]

Do I have to vote today or tomorrow

Yes

<3