Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[Balki Bartokomous]

I'm sure Mean would argue the same thing. I say we let town decide rather than have a pre-arranged order.

I mean...obviously.

[thamrick]

Also, for the record, we have to lynch a scum today or tomorrow (assuming there isn't another nurse save) to avoid LYLO.

[MeanLaQueefa]

That's a weird thing to say balki (that all I do is push scum cases without examining town possibilities), cause even in my first paragraph I talk about how you questioning demon could have been a change of heart if you were town.

Listen, you're criticism is a valid sentiment, but I listed so many times where you appeared scummy, and at a certain point, if it looks like scum, smells like scum, and tastes like scum, it is probably scum. You also are the person most guilty of tunneling arguments in this game, not I, even if I may have started it. You haven't done much talking about how I could be doing my actions as a town lately, so it appears you're a hypocrite as well as scum.

Update for balki's new post: How can all I do is smear when I have tons of town reads, I've stuck up for several people as town time and time again, brain, demon, rdr, tham, etc. I even town read you for a while in the middle! I didn't smear you at all. Bitch, you called me Trump a couple days ago, if that ain't a smear, I don't know what is.

What happened to responding to me point-by-point? I wrote a huge argument about you, respond to that for my accusations of you. You don't have one biggest thing that makes you scum, you're getting caught as scum is death by a thousand cuts. The demon interaction on D1, your vote switch to ND D3, your vote switch to vash and then back to jamie D1, your vote on vash that could be to protect rjm (the witch), the your weird read of bo AND yav as scum yesterday, your general demeanor of being a smart person doing very stupid and scummy things, you're unbelievably tenacious tunneling of me, and your case about yav driving the vote away from me when we didn't even know yav or ND's alignment. Those are some of the greatest hits of your scumminess, start with those.

[DemonRHK]

Also, for the record, we have to lynch a scum today or tomorrow (assuming there isn't another nurse save) to avoid LYLO.

???

10-3 currently
fuckups lead 8-3, 6-3, 4-3
Assuming no gunshots.

LYLO would be Day 7, not 6.

[thamrick]

Also, for the record, we have to lynch a scum today or tomorrow (assuming there isn't another nurse save) to avoid LYLO.

Wait. I'm an idiot. Ignore me.

[Balki Bartokomous]

You don't have one biggest thing that makes you scum, you're getting caught as scum is death by a thousand cuts. The demon interaction on D1, your vote switch to ND D3, your vote switch to vash and then back to jamie D1, your vote on vash that could be to protect rjm (the witch), the your weird read of bo AND yav as scum yesterday, your general demeanor of being a smart person doing very stupid and scummy things, you're unbelievably tenacious tunneling of me, and your case about yav driving the vote away from me when we didn't even know yav or ND's alignment. Those are some of the greatest hits of your scumminess, start with those.

Okay, let's start with your first argument. My DemonRHK interaction on page 5 or so. Your argument is that I tried to tarnish DemonRHK there after somebody voted for Demon. You're saying that my scum motivation was to try to start a wagon on Demon without having responsibility for it.

But your argument is factually wrong. I had an interaction with Demon, and then I felt like Demon looked townish as a result. That was a very helpful read for me that helped orient me in the game. I found that Demon's frustration at not being able to deal with lurkers and sort of half-hearted swipe at them came from a town place. I identified with it. And I said so in the thread. It is bizarre that you read that and thoguht "here is scum trying to smear someone." I did the exact opposite. I town read Demon there -- and I said so.

How did you read that interaction and think "Balki is trying to smear someone"? You keep saying that. It's crazy. The facts are the opposite.

[Balki Bartokomous]

What happened to responding to me point-by-point? I wrote a huge argument about you, respond to that for my accusations of you. You don't have one biggest thing that makes you scum, you're getting caught as scum is death by a thousand cuts. The demon interaction on D1, your vote switch to ND D3, your vote switch to vash and then back to jamie D1, your vote on vash that could be to protect rjm (the witch), the your weird read of bo AND yav as scum yesterday, your general demeanor of being a smart person doing very stupid and scummy things, you're unbelievably tenacious tunneling of me, and your case about yav driving the vote away from me when we didn't even know yav or ND's alignment. Those are some of the greatest hits of your scumminess, start with those.

Okay, my vote switch to ND. I have explained this to death. I explained it when it happened, and I provided a long explanation to Thamrick earlier today. I was distrustful of the Yavuz Cop claim after DemonRHK countered it. At first I wanted to resolve the CC for our PRs, but then I realized (1) we're in the lead and we need not be risky, and (2) our PRs are not more powerful in the open while a nurse save prevents a scan and scum have a RB. So, I think my vote makes good sense.

Why do you think Scum Balki makes that vote? Why does scum Balki engage with the whole episode and not sit back and let town sink? You march this out as a talking point, but it doesn't seem like you've actually put thought into it. You've provided no analysis that weighs the possibilities.

[MeanLaQueefa]

Tham: "MLQ - I want your defense to include a "why Bo is scum" line. I'd also like you to put yourself in my shoes and try to argue why I think you're scum."

I don't scum read bo, but I don't hard town read him like I did when I thought yav was scum either. I'd rate him as a slight town read, but I want balki dead now.

My argument against myself as Tham: She is has always been on the wrong side of history when it comes to votes as far as we know. She pushed tom hard D2, who is almost certainly a town clear now. She voted yav who was a claimed cop, the safe decision for town was to lynch ND. She is the type of player who could be dangerous scum and good at arguing for herself, so what she says is highly suspect. I don't think she sees bo in the right light and might be protecting him as a scum team, same goes for demon.

[MeanLaQueefa]

balki, I never said you smeared demon, you smeared me. You were very coy with demon, and it very much seemed like you wanted it to seem like nothing, that's my issue with it.

[MeanLaQueefa]

I'm going to pack up and drive to my dad's house, so I may have to get back to the gauntlet later tonight.

[Balki Bartokomous]

What happened to responding to me point-by-point? I wrote a huge argument about you, respond to that for my accusations of you. You don't have one biggest thing that makes you scum, you're getting caught as scum is death by a thousand cuts. The demon interaction on D1, your vote switch to ND D3, your vote switch to vash and then back to jamie D1, your vote on vash that could be to protect rjm (the witch), the your weird read of bo AND yav as scum yesterday, your general demeanor of being a smart person doing very stupid and scummy things, you're unbelievably tenacious tunneling of me, and your case about yav driving the vote away from me when we didn't even know yav or ND's alignment. Those are some of the greatest hits of your scumminess, start with those.

You are confusing all the votes here. I did not vote Vash and then move back to Jamiet. And it's particularly odd that you march this back out as a talking point, because at some point earlier you acknowledged that you were wrong about all this.

I pushed Jamiet and voted Jamiet before it was cool. I pushed Jamiet all Day 1 even in the face of you telling me that Jamiet was just being dumb ("dumb does not equal scum") and you saying his wagon was not viable. I stayed on Jamiet until there were 5 minutes left in the phase and I was either tied in the vote lead with ND, or I was 1 off the vote lead. I moved to ND to try to save myself.

Yes still -- even when I switched to ND -- I was saying in the thread that I didn't understand the ND wagon and I preferred the Jamiet wagon. I said something about needing a Cliff Notes version of the ND case, as there wasn't much there at all. Then when votes moved to Jamiet and put him ahead of ND -- meaning I no longer needed to be on ND to save myself, I moved back to Jamiet -- my biggest scum read of Day 1.

For you to say that my Day 1 vote on Jamiet was scummy makes zero sense. Any town tries to save himself at the end if he can there. And it would be extremely bizarre scum play to spend all day 1 trying to get your partner lynched.

You are mischaracterizing day 1-- day 1 makes it pretty clear that I am town and you are scum.

[Maniac]

@balki & MLQ - the other town clears can speak for themselves. I think if you're both town you can both be more useful that you are right now attacking one another.

@Balki - if you're town provide us with a case on Bozo (without mentioning MLQ)

@MLQ - If you're town provide us with a case on reedeer1 (Without mentioning Balki).

[Balki Bartokomous]

balki, I never said you smeared demon, you smeared me. You were very coy with demon, and it very much seemed like you wanted it to seem like nothing, that's my issue with it.

Very coy with Demon? What? That isn't what you've been saying at all? What does that even mean? Why is it scum-indicative?

I town read Demon. Coy? What?

[MeanLaQueefa]

Balki, you asked demon questions in an accusing way, adding to his case on top of tom's (who appears to be a player that is respected here) gut vote against him. It very much looked like you were trying to grease the wheels on demon's wagon and let others push it. I find that scum indicative.

[Balki Bartokomous]

balki, I never said you smeared demon, you smeared me. You were very coy with demon, and it very much seemed like you wanted it to seem like nothing, that's my issue with it.

These are things you've said about my interaction with Demon:

I'll be working most of today, but the only person so far who's given me a bad gut feeling is Balki. He keeps putting awkward pressure on people (dar and demon), pressuring people with questions that have obvious answers. DemonRHK said some obvious stuff and Balki grilled him on it in a weird way. It looks like he's trying to seem commanding and to push people, without having any real bite behind his pushing. Maybe that is how he plays, or he's trying to keep people talking, but it struck me the wrong way.

Him pushing demon after tom's vote is just gunna lead dumb and disconnected town to think he is a viable target and vote for him. Now he openly town reads demon, washing his hands of the matter even further.

My feelings on balki are a long and complicated tale. It starts with a little man named tom bombadil throwing a random gut vote on a chap named demon early on D1. Balki asked questions that heavily implied accusations at demon, who was the only one under serious pressure at the time. Balki then apologized and backed off the exchange without voting demon, but definitely hurting his reputation

Am I crazy for thinking your argument here has always been that I was smearing or "pushing" or "pressuring" or "heavily implying accusations against" Demon?

What is this new "playing coy" thing? Did your entire foundation for thinking I am scum just change? Or is "playing coy" the same thing as heavily implying accusations against" someone?

You need to get your story straight.

[MeanLaQueefa]

Maniac, I feel the case on reedeer is that his votes seem hedgey and to not make sense with what he says. A specific example would be his vote on ND yesterday, where he acts frustrated with the people fake claiming, then votes the guy who isn't fake claiming without giving any explanation. On day 1 he says he doesn't like any of the top wagons, but people he thinks are town are voting jamie, so he votes jamie. Then he says people who are scum are voting him (in the same post) but continues voting for him anyway. This isn't just hedgey, it straight up doesn't make sense. Redeer isn't being questioned by hardly anyone and is riding by not giving explanations on his votes or thoughts, he needs some pressure to at least get him talking so we can get a better read on him. Maybe his talking will make him seem more towny, that worked with bozo (at least to me). Maybe him talking will reveal him as scum. Either way, town wins.

[MeanLaQueefa]

balki, your questions against demon looked accusatory, but you acted quiet and reserved afterwards, that's an apt use of the word "coy." Coy means shy, quiet or reserved while also hiding some other intention, usually to make yourself seem more appealing. You have proven yourself to not have a very coy personality since that interaction (yelling at people looking at the thread to come and play, for instance, isn't very coy), which makes the way you acted even more weird.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Balki, you asked demon questions in an accusing way, adding to his case on top of tom's (who appears to be a player that is respected here) gut vote against him. It very much looked like you were trying to grease the wheels on demon's wagon and let others push it. I find that scum indicative.

Crazy. This cannot be a sincere process.

Here is the end of my short interaction with DemonRHK, on page 4:

If my post, and the subsequent heat and discussion it's generated gets one less person to lurk, then it's a success. Yes, I'm trying to get people to be active.

The last line was a dig at the fact that(the last time I played) we'd spent about a year trying to get people to not lurk, unsuccessfully.

Well this rings sincere to me. I’ve felt that frustration, and I’ve sort of swung limply at lurkers before, feeling a bit powerless to change their behavior, but wanting to scold them anyway.

Demon, please don’t lurk this game.

So, "sincerity" is the sin qua non of scum/town sorting for me. I asked DemonRHK a question, and I found his answer to be sincere. And I said so.

How the Hell is that "greasing the wheels for a DemonRHK wagon"? Is is exactly the opposite. I read DemonRHK as Town here, and I have basically defended him wherever appropriate since this moment. You are accusing me of doing something that never happened.

Fake News.

Alternative Facts.

[Tom Bombadil]

Vote Count with 4 minutes left D1

"Day One Vote Count 5.1

ND (6): snowy801, bozotheclown, Rjmcf, Foxcastle, thamrick, Balki Bartokomous
Balki Bartokomous (5): MeanLaQueefa, yavuzovic, Maniac, VashtaNeurotic, Jamiet99uk
Jamiet99uk (4): , DemonRHK,brainbomb, ND, rdrivera2005
DemonRHK (2): Tom Bombadil, Ezio
Ezio (1): reedeer1
brainbomb (1): bo_sox48
yavuzovic (1): dargorygel



Not voted (1): SuperSteve

Currently ND is set to be lynched. You have 6 minutes remaining."



With 4 minutes left!

redeer then votes Jamie to put him into a tie for second place. We now know that ND was town. redeer could have easily voted ND after saying that he didn't have strong feelings about any of the wagons. (He did say earlier he thought ND might be town. Which is interesting because that means that if reedeer is scum, Balki is almost certainly scum and reedeer bussed the less powerful scumrole. I still think its likelier that reedeer is town though.

Also interesting to remember that Jamie is voting Balki and not ND (Confirmed town). I'd be interested to hear how this does not make Balki look quite towny.

[Balki Bartokomous]

balki, your questions against demon looked accusatory, but you acted quiet and reserved afterwards, that's an apt use of the word "coy." Coy means shy, quiet or reserved while also hiding some other intention, usually to make yourself seem more appealing. You have proven yourself to not have a very coy personality since that interaction (yelling at people looking at the thread to come and play, for instance, isn't very coy), which makes the way you acted even more weird.

Am I scum for being coy or am I scum for greasing the wheels for a DemonRHK lynch?

If I am scum for being "coy," what is my scum motivation for being coy? Unpack this.

Sometimes I am loud. Sometimes I try to get people to react to me and try to force engagement. Sometimes I am more gentle. Does changing approaches and moods mean I am scum? What's your point?