Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[Foxcastle]

@DemonRHK, why are you okay with Balki going up? You were townreading him, and as far as I can tell haven't said anything else on him. Is there a particular case you find compelling?

[ND]

No claims from me

[MeanLaQueefa]

fox and ND, If brain isn't the gunslinger, I lean towards lynching him in pretty much any case, which is also why I'm fine shooting him if I get the gun. If he is fake claiming, he falls into the zone of being dangerous to town regardless of his real alignment.

Also, Brain, don't be cute and give me the gun if you are really the gunslinger now that you seem to town read me, I will shoot you! No borking kidding, if I get a gun, you're dead.

[brainbomb]

ND you are so terrible at mafia I think you could actually be town here.

Ill excuse you being horrible for today.

##Vote Balki

Balki is hedging and making no effort to find scum.

[DemonRHK]

@DemonRHK, why are you okay with Balki going up? You were townreading him, and as far as I can tell haven't said anything else on him. Is there a particular case you find compelling?

Because compared to both ND and Brain, I consider him more like to be scum than both. None of my reads are leading at the moment, but I'd like to take the chance to sell people on a Tom lynch. He hasn't provided anything of use and just disappeared. It's lazy play, and he needs to contribute or pay the piper.

And for the love of god, don't shoot brain, he's so town to me it's ridiculous.

[Foxcastle]

@Mean: as several people have pointed out, Brain makes all sorts of claims, true and false, as town an scum. Brain being dangerous to town regardless of his real alignment isn't a symptom of fakeclaiming, it's a symptom of Brainbomb. So... keep that in mind before you pull the trigger.

[Foxcastle]

##vote ND

@DemonRHK, I don't find Balki scummy at all, but I agree that Tom was odd, and could get on that wagon if it gets up there, depending on other options.

[brainbomb]

Imagine how fun this game will be without me.

Imagine all the great discussions there wont be once im dead.

Also vash is maybe scum. He would never ever ever pass up a chance to lynch me. Especially when I claim my role in the 2nd post of the game.

[MeanLaQueefa]

wait, so now fox is telling me not to shoot brainbomb? Fox, what do you think of brainbomb, you're confusing me with your stance. If he is always dangerous regardless of alignment, should we just kill him first each game?

[brainbomb]

wait, so now fox is telling me not to shoot brainbomb? Fox, what do you think of brainbomb, you're confusing me with your stance. If he is always dangerous regardless of alignment, should we just kill him first each game?

My previous game before this I was scum. My team not only won, we won flawlessly without losing a single scumteam member. I unveiled a new meta where I didnt bus a single teammate as well. Our team has been nominated on mafiauniverse as best team of 2018. Were the first flawless scum win in a while.

[Foxcastle]

wait, so now fox is telling me not to shoot brainbomb? Fox, what do you think of brainbomb, you're confusing me with your stance. If he is always dangerous regardless of alignment, should we just kill him first each game?

I'm not telling what to do with the gun. I'm telling you: he's like this. I'm telling you: fakeclaiming gunsmith is not automatically indicative that he's scum, or that he's town. I'm telling you: Brainbomb gonna Brainbomb.

[brainbomb]

There will be a time for me to die. Dont worry. Mafia would prefer you lynch me.

[brainbomb]

I hope I dont get roleblocked.

[Balki Bartokomous]

@MeanLaQueefa,

I think you’re town, so I’d like us to bring this to a head. Please ask me questions if you have them. I’ll go through your post point-by-point.

“I’m doubling down on balki.

I see in him as a player who possesses the ability to be harmful to town whichever alignment he actually is. He is smart, brain even mentioned how he was hoping he’d “solve this game” like he’s been good in the past, but hasn’t done anything helpful today.”

I really want you to elaborate on this as much as possible. What makes you think I am harmful to town no matter my alignment? This is an incredibly strange observation for a new player on page 20 of the first game we’ve ever played together. You seem to believe Brain when he says I’m “smart,” but you don’t think it’s useful to have a “smart” townie around to help sort everyone else? Why don't you ask someone who has played with me for more than 20 pages whether I am useful to have around. I don’t really understand the allegation here. And I don’t really understand how you’re arriving at it. I've never been lynched for being unhelpful town before, and I think I'm a pretty odd target if that's your reason for lynching me. Please tell me more.

“He argued pointedly, with lukewarm accusations, about several of RHK's statements that had obvious answers to anyone who has read the setup, immediately after tom voted for him on just gut, which would be a great strategy for an opportunistic mafia to subtly cast shade on someone already getting heat, and then he just backed away courteously.”

It would be good if you would quote the questions of mine that you think are the worst offenders. You’re talking about early Day 1 interactions here. You should not expect anything more than “luke warm” from anyone “smart” enough to know there is a lot of uncertainty today.

DemonRHK made a post or two that sounded strange to me. I asked him some questions about them. He engaged with me immediately. I came away from the interaction understanding his point of view, and feeling like he was being sincere.

Basically the same thing happened with Jamiet earlier today. He made some posts that seemed odd to me. I asked him questions. His reaction seemed insincere. So I voted for him.

That’s what I’m looking for, and that’s what I’m hoping everyone is looking for. Insincerity. People who are manufacturing a scumhunt. Everyone will make mistakes. Everyone will contradict themselves. But the majority of us are actually trying to sort scum from town, and the bad guys are pretending. In questioning DemonRHK and Jamiet, I read Jamiet as pretending and DemonRHK as the genuine article.

“If he is mafia, this could be a brilliant play. Thing is, if he is town, there isn't motivation for it, it is just bad for town. Him pushing demon after tom's vote is just gunna lead dumb and disconnected town to think he is a viable target and vote for him. Now he openly town reads demon, washing his hands of the matter even further.”

So, this is an error on your part. I did not “push Demon” at all. I questioned Demon, and then I put clearly in the thread after questioning him that:

“Well this rings sincere to me. I’ve felt that frustration, and I’ve sort of swung limply at lurkers before, feeling a bit powerless to change their behavior, but wanting to scold them anyway.”

So, I’ve in fact done the opposite of what you thought I did. Do you agree with me now that I did not “push DemonRHK”?

And how is reading Demon as town “washing my hands of the matter”? I don’t understand what you are calling “could be brilliant play.” What are you accusing me of doing, exactly? Explain Scum Balki’s motivation and what he is trying to accomplish.

“He is now pushing Jamie on trivial crap again with the same loose reasoning. That whole argument felt like Balki trying to find an easy place to put his vote that wouldn't seem out of place, so why not push the guy people have described as "acting less belligerent than usual," get into a dumb argument and cast an emotional vote that people can easily understand. Thing is, he seems too smart to have this bad of arguments and pushes.”

Okay, so this is (your first) alignment indicative argument. You think my reasons for voting Jamiet are beneath me and insincere. Can you paraphrase for me what you perceive to be my reasons for voting Jamiet? Is this, like, the worst Day 1 case that you’ve ever seen? Why not ask me questions about it? Why not hold my feet to the fire?

And when you say that my push on Jamiet has “the same loose reasoning” as when I pushed Demon, what do you mean? Does it impact your argument to see that in fact I did not “push Demon”?

Truly, I don’t understand why you think my Jamiet push in insincere or “trivial crap” or “this bad of arguments.” This seems to be the keystone of your Balki case, but I don’t think you’ve explained it. You’ve just asserted it.

Take the time to explain why.

“Then there was the weird gentlemanly way he responded to my accusation of him, endorsing me as town, pretty much exclusively for pushing him. It just feels like he’s trying to manipulate me and others into thinking he’s a rational actor when every other decision he’s made this game has been based on borky reasoning and I’d argue has been anti-town.”

You think it is anti-town for me to town-read you? That, respectfully, is insane. Town reads are gold. And if you are town, it is really useful for other townies to town-read you. To call this anti-town...I don't understand.

Here is the flaw in your analysis: You look at a possible bad guy motivation for declaring a town read: “trying to manipulate.” Absolutely. That can happen. That is a possible explanation. But you do not spend even one word analyzing the reasons why I town read you and trying to determine whether they are sincere. And you don’t consider the Town Balki motivation for declaring a town read. It’s pretty obvious – town reads are anchors in the storm. They are extremely helpful in solving the puzzle.

So, somewhere along the lines you’ve assumed I am scum, and now you are conf-biasing my actions towards you, only considering the potential scum motivation. That is a mistake.

“Having lengthy arguments on the pedantics of what people say doesn’t catch mafia.”

??? I mean, it’s day 1. I’m asking questions. I don’t think I’ve had any “lengthy arguments.” Just you wait. But don’t lecture me on how to catch mafia on your first game. And don’t minimize the importance of asking questions and engaging with people.

You came away from a few day 1 posts thinking I am scum. Fine. I’m glad you’ve posted about it, and explained your thoughts. But you’re going to get a lot further along by asking me questions about my motivations and trying to understand me.

“Based on his posts and what people have said about his past play, he seems like he is an intelligent player, and I could believe him trying to mastermind a lot of his interactions with people. However, even if he isn't mafia, I think his play is bad for town anyway, so I'd be okay with losing him as a town player too. The way he plays really rustles my jimmies ”

I still don’t understand this “anti-town” behavior that you are asserting. What am I doing that is so dangerous?

I think you need to ask more questions. And you’re going to really hurt the town if you see questioning and engagement as “anti-town.”

[Balki Bartokomous]

@Brainbomb --

You haven't responded to me. You made a comment about my interactions with Jamiet. You said, colorfully, that I was obviously scum because I argued with Jamiet, but did not vote him. Here is what you said exactly:

Balki is fucking obv scum
Hes literally just distancing his buddies now. If jamie and balki were a v/v there wouldve been a vote in there

But you made an error. Because I did vote for Jamiet. Smack dab in the middle of the interactions you were describing.

So, does that impact your analysis? You said, "If jamie and balki were a v'v there would've been a vote in there"

THERE WAS A VOTE IN THERE.

How does that impact your conclusion?

Also, why are considering only Town v. Town or Scum v. Scum?

[Foxcastle]

I'm headed off, I might be following along on my phone, but won't be making any final big arguments. ND, rjm, Yavuz are my top 3, and if it comes down to Tom or someone I think is towny, I'd jump on Tom (assuming I'm paying attention).

[brainbomb]

It impacts it a lot.

[brainbomb]

Okay Balki.

##Vote Jamiet99uk

[Balki Bartokomous]

@DemonRHK, why are you okay with Balki going up? You were townreading him, and as far as I can tell haven't said anything else on him. Is there a particular case you find compelling?

Because compared to both ND and Brain, I consider him more like to be scum than both. None of my reads are leading at the moment, but I'd like to take the chance to sell people on a Tom lynch. He hasn't provided anything of use and just disappeared. It's lazy play, and he needs to contribute or pay the piper.

And for the love of god, don't shoot brain, he's so town to me it's ridiculous.

I'm not voting Tom today. He was brief, but I liked his questions. And the game started on a Friday afternoon -- it's hard to fault anyone for not being helpful yet.

I think we should focus on people for whom we can make an affirmative case.

[brainbomb]

Jamie hasnt done anything. Hes been very light and voted mostly lurkers or non posters.

Hes voted yavuz, vash, bo and vash. Mostly people who have either totally ignored him or have never responded to his pressure. That could be by design. And I absolutely dont want to lynch balki if theres any chance at all he could be town. Hes usually better at defending himself as scum. Hes not fought pressure off himself. This kinda screams town!balki.