Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

[ND]

@ND, you appear to be subtly lurking. All of your posts are either bitching or 1-2 sentence comments that provide nothing to the game. You've clearly read up to at least page 22 (or at least you claim to have) and yet you have no opinions or reads to provide us with.

Please give us some in-depth reads and thoughts on everyone & their posts, because right now, you're a really underrated wagon in my opinion.

Fuck off. I'm compiling some thoughts after reading 30 fucking pages right now. I don't give a fuck what you think Mr. s0-called VT.

[xorxes]

I believe he either
1.believes he can prove he is VT,
2. is Town Pr trying to Make Scum believe he is VT (which depending on his role could make one other player inclined to promote that image)
3.or is the Blind assasin, trying to keep everyone off his case.

No chance he is scum fishing for town PRs? Any reason you are sure of that?

Approximately what I had written:
A lot of people were angry with chipperock before the game even started, and even without knowing the history or any details, I can tell that some players would be glad of any excuse to lynch him.It would be almost suicidal to do as Scum. Unless he is a master of Wifom, I just find this play as scum to be extremely unlikely.

That does not explain why you think him being Blind Assassin is more likely than him being any other scum.

[Percy Williams]

The worst part is that it's only part 1.

@TrPrado, are you going to answer the question directed to you in that large post wall?

I'll be the one asking questions here. Also which question?

The one you asked about how TrPrado is so awesome.

[Squigs44]

Alright,let us respond to TrPrado, bit by bit:

Squigs44:

Cordial greetings from Squigs before he reveals a shtick. He starts quoting people's posts and stating his opening thoughts regarding what it could indicate about their alignment. He makes the following claims, respectively:

1) Fox - town (3)
2) Flavius - slight scum (2)
3) me - slight town (2)
4) Balki - town (5)
5) et - very slight scum (2)
6) dargo - slight town (1)
7) connor - town (1)
8) Carl - slight town (1)
9) Percy - slight town (4)
10) teacon - slight scum (1)
11) Chippe - slight scum (3)
12) Tom - town (2)
13) ND - town (2)
Presuming he townreads himself, he's leaving out 9 players. Two of whom (Durga and rdrivera) he's interacted with without giving indication of how he reads them. The underline vs bold is where he hedges vs where he makes a hard read. He hedges all of his 4 scum reads, one of them even being so bold as to call itself "very slight." I did that my first game (M11) and got torn to shreds for it because of how hedgy it is. It makes him suggesting 5 hard town reads in these posts almost weird.

Yes, I left out players. As I was doing this exercise, I was also making 70+ posts. I got busy and missed a few players here or there since keeping track of 20+ players and exactly which ones you haven't done yet is hard. Also, there were at least 2 people if not more that had not posted before today. You really expect me to not hedge reads on my first gut reads? Were your reads in M11 made in the first few hours of the game?

When Flavius first asks him to explain it, Squigs refuses because it would ruin the fun. I'm inclined to agree, the reactions to it made it pretty fun. But then Flavius asks again and Squigs says:

I leaned many new tactics over on MU for solving. I wanted to try some of them in this game. There is a guy over there who makes reads on the first post of every player in every game and is better than random accurate

Looking back, I have a pretty big problem with this explanation. Namely, Squigs is certainly not doing what he's saying this other guy was doing (indicated in bold. As mentioned above, it's not every player, but in my list I also give a number for which post Squigs uses for each player that he says he uses to determine their alignment. Only 4 players were judged based on their first post. That's not counting the number of posts between the times when they make the post and when Squigs quotes them. So Squigs is being untruthful for some reason, and I'll only accept one possibility here.

I was refusing to explain why I said scum on Flavius, not refusing to explain what I was doing. You're right, I didn't do what the other guy did. I never claimed that I was doing exactly what the other guy was doing nor that I would even be as accurate as him. See this post for a more detailed explanation that should satisfy you.

Flavius makes a comment about how Squigs reads Foxy as scum, and Squigs very adamantly calls Flavius out as a liar (lol), and when Flavius says it was just a mistake Squigs calls it a lie whether or not there was ill intent. He calls Flavius out for being defensive, but when Carl suggests that he should vote for him for that reason Squigs says

I tend to use my vote early for pressure or to make a point. I think Flav already has enough pressure. Besides, his greatest crimes right now are being defensive and lying. Townies are defensive and lie all the time. What you have to do is look at why Flav lied and why he is being defensive.

but he goes on to say he considers Flav his strongest scumread still.

I have already answered this, I was scumreading Flavius, more-so than others, but it was still a weak scumread.

He also calls out Flav for having 7 scum in his reads list, but with time to reflect since there are 6 people on the scum team I really don't think 7 is necessarily a stretch for a reads list. Squigs is blowing a lot of Flav's posts way out of proportion, and I don't like it.

7 scums in a full list of all 23 players would not be bad at all. He had 7 scum in a list of 11 players. Extrapolating that would make 14 scum in the game. So yes, I was making a big deal out of it because it was a big deal, he had 64% scum.

Gets in a fight with teacon but seems pretty inconsequential except for this line

So I have had a recent shift in opinion on meta, to use it more lightly and look more at people's motivations than their actions. It is still useful in some scenarios, and is unavoidable to unconsciously include in your judgement, but I would say here on webDip we use meta a little too much.

Gets back into a fight with Carl about voting vs not voting. When I get in a fight with teacon, Squigs says I'm getting caught up on "two or three joke posts" and asks how I feel about his "lot of other posts and stances" which is the question I've been meaning to come back to. But the problem is that I'd say the question is based on a mischaracterization of teacon's posts. He presumes teacon to have substance to him because of his own conversation with him, but their argument seems very sudden and almost fabricated.

When I asked this he had 29 posts, and while a decent amount of them were jokes, he certainly had some posts of substance in there. Besides his interaction with me, he interacted with or asked questions to: Foxcastle, et, connorcompton, darg, FlaviusAetius, Balki, Nephthys, Crusader, Carl, Chippe, you, and MoscowFleet.

You are accusing me of misconstruing things, but this is an instance where you are misconstruing things.

Tells Durga he's not defending Flavius, joins in on the Roast of Chippe, continues fighting against Carl now over Squigs attacking Flavius over the number of scum in his list. Votes for Chippe for not being clear and "post[ing] without scumhunting" which causes Carl to vote for Squigs which causes Tom to call Carl scummy. Squigs says

If I explained my vote now it would lose its purpose. Remind me later and I will explain.

I explained my vote in this post.

Percy quotes Squigs criticizing Flavius for his number of scumreads and asks how many scumreads Squigs handed out. The answer is 4. Squigs said he thinks he missed a couple people and would "do them real quick and give [Percy] a breakdown" but he never did. I had to do it myself by hand.

Sorry, I was busy posting about other things, and then the Chippe thing happened and I decided to go to bed.

Carl and Percy say that Squigs giving his gut reads is the same as Flavius doing his list, but Squigs says it's different because his gut reads aren't meant to influence the rest of the game and instead are just a "fun exercise" whereas Flavius gave criteria. Then in the middle of this conversation stops to give his last gut read, the one on ND.

Squigs leaves for a while and comes back and unvotes because now he thinks Chippe believes what he's saying. He cites the number of votes on Chippe when he jumps off then gives a half-hearted plea for others to do the same. Then he threatens Chippe that he'll vote for him anyway.

Yes, I am being quite vicious towards Flav... by witholding my vote? And yes, I am only jumping on bandwagons... except that I have only placed one vote - on you - with reasoning given - and as the second voter.

I would be fine with a Flav lynch at this point in the game, but there are still lots of other people who I still need to read and analyze and question. We still have people who haven't posted in the game yet.

Leaves for the night, comes back, votes Tom because "His play is so awfully awk right now. His posts aren't actually moving discussion at all. Town Tom is much better than this." To which I'd like to draw everyone's attention back to the earlier line

So I have had a recent shift in opinion on meta, to use it more lightly and look more at people's motivations than their actions. It is still useful in some scenarios, and is unavoidable to unconsciously include in your judgement, but I would say here on webDip we use meta a little too much.

I didn't say I wasn't going to use meta, I said I would try to be more careful. I would say that so far this game I have used meta less than usual.

Leaves for a couple hours, comes back, says he'll get to questions in about half an hour, leaves for another hour still not back. (I wrote this last part before he returned obviously.)

This man is full of lies, vitriol, hypocrisy, and unfulfilled promises.

QUESTIONS:

Why did you not cover everyone in your gut reads?
Why is 7 players so unrealistic in a reads list for a game with a 6 person scum team?
Why were you inconsistent about the hedgy nature of these reads?
When you said you wanted to move away from meta, do you still agree?

I think I may have already answered some of these questions in the above, but I will reiterate them since I have to answer questions 3 times before people stop asking them anyways.

I did not cover anyone in my gut read because not everyone had posted yesterday, I lost track of exactly who was making their first post, and I was busy posting about other things.

7 mafia in a reads list for a game with a 6 person mafia team is unrealistic when those 7 were pulled from a list of 11 players, meaning he had 64% mafia.

I assume you are asking about my gut reads saying slight scum vs town? I have always found it easier to identify obvtown players D1 than obvscum players. People obvtown when they are town and put in effort or enthusiasm, people obvscum when they are scum and slip up due to lack of effort or attention to detail. At the beginning of a game people have more effort and enthusiasm.

Yes, I think we should use less meta, but I don't think that we should completely abolish meta.

[Squigs44]

I'm not going to be as detailed with my iso of Durga because she has more posts so I can't go through them all one by one, and because I townread Durga.

The main take away I have from Durga is that she is playing with emotion. She seems genuine in her views and each of her posts seems to have a purpose or clear stance. As scum she finds it difficult to solve, but I don't see that frustration here, she is putting in some decent solving. Her opinions and progression wrt Flav and Chippe match my own and seem natural.

@Durga - Thoughts on Tom and Xorxes?

I'm leaning town on Tom I think. Xorx is mia

Why are you leaning town on Tom? Did you read my case on Tom? Disagreements?

[Squigs44]

I'm not going to be as detailed with my iso of Durga because she has more posts so I can't go through them all one by one, and because I townread Durga.

The main take away I have from Durga is that she is playing with emotion. She seems genuine in her views and each of her posts seems to have a purpose or clear stance. As scum she finds it difficult to solve, but I don't see that frustration here, she is putting in some decent solving. Her opinions and progression wrt Flav and Chippe match my own and seem natural.

@Durga - Thoughts on Tom and Xorxes?

What?

Durga has said herself that she hates playing as scum because she can't pretend to solve. She likes when there are third parties though since she can still try to solve for who the third party is, so this point is a bit muted by that.

[Carl Tuckerson]

##UNVOTE TrPrado
##VOTE Tom Bombadil

[Carl Tuckerson]

Vote comes back if you don't finish that breakdown OR you do finish it but you fail to call me handsome or charismatic.

[Nephthys]

First 10 pages,

Squigs really wants to control the thread... Don't necessarily think its AI but.. yikes

Teacon is not looking good
Carl is looking good
Darg doing some weird shit
Flav I'm not too sure yet

[ChippeRock]

@ND, you appear to be subtly lurking. All of your posts are either bitching or 1-2 sentence comments that provide nothing to the game. You've clearly read up to at least page 22 (or at least you claim to have) and yet you have no opinions or reads to provide us with.

Please give us some in-depth reads and thoughts on everyone & their posts, because right now, you're a really underrated wagon in my opinion.

Fuck off. I'm compiling some thoughts after reading 30 fucking pages right now. I don't give a fuck what you think Mr. s0-called VT.

Would you look at that, 5 minutes that could of been spent making a post about your reads that instead went to insulting me.

[Squigs44]

Iso'd Xorxes. Giving him a slight town read pending on more posts. His posting style seems to be pretty relaxed, and he is asking good solvy questions.

My one worry is that so far Xorxes has spent a majority of his time on Chippe or Percy, two players who are newer and more reactive players rather than active. He did say he was going to look at some other players a few pages back, so those reads should be more informative.

[Tom Bombadil]

Vote comes back if you don't finish that breakdown OR you do finish it but you fail to call me handsome or charismatic.

Can you explain what about TrPrado's post you think is towny enough for you to change your vote?

[TrPrado]

Vote comes back if you don't finish that breakdown OR you do finish it but you fail to call me handsome or charismatic.

This is bribery and blackmail

[Squigs44]

I was gonna iso TrPrado next, but his huge wall earns him a town-pass for at least day 1 from me, so I would rather look at other players. Think I will do teacon next.

[Tom Bombadil]

townclearing people for posting a shit ton is not a good precedent.

Prado would put effort and volume into the game as town or scum.

[Tom Bombadil]

or "town passing" rather

[Squigs44]

townclearing people for posting a shit ton is not a good precedent.

Prado would put effort and volume into the game as town or scum.

But I read the whole wall and it's not a wall of garbage its a wall of clear thought and purpose, even if I disagree with parts of it. I'm not townclearing him, I'm giving him a free pass for the first day or 2 while I sort out the other 21 players in the game.

[Carl Tuckerson]

@Tom, see this post:

townclearing people for posting a shit ton is not a good precedent.

Prado would put effort and volume into the game as town or scum.

But I read the whole wall and it's not a wall of garbage its a wall of clear thought and purpose, even if I disagree with parts of it. I'm not townclearing him, I'm giving him a free pass for the first day or 2 while I sort out the other 21 players in the game.

[Carl Tuckerson]

Halfway Thru D1 Readz


COOL: Affirmatively confident they are town.

Squigs44
Balki Bartokomous
ChippeRock
Carl Tuckerson
FlaviusAetius

PASS: Not sold they are town yet but feeling okay about them. Would not lynch. Would like to see TrPrado finish his big breakdown; Durga, explain her parking on MoscowFleet w/o pressuring him otherwise or do something else; et and connorcompton, posting more, b/c while their post count is light I liked what I saw.

TrPrado
Durga
et
connorcompton

WHO?: No opinion, low enough activity that I don't think it means anything.

MoscowFleet
CruaaderReynauld
bozotheclown
rdrivera2005
Nephthys
EspressoPatronum
xorxes
damo666

HANG: Voting pool for today. Either did something actively suspicious or I have no opinion on them but they have too many posts to be WHO? which is suspicious in itself. Individual notes:

teacon7
Percy Williams

^^both of the above are top 10 posters by post count but I don't remember their stances on anything important. Both have parked on total AFKlords. Part of this may be on me if I just didn't notice their pushes but maybe someone can verify this for me or not. I'll reread either way.

Tom Bombadil
Foxcastle
dargorygel

^^all three of these dudes are doing the bit where they ask questions and kinda look like they're going places but ultimately don't end up anywhere. Tom's recently defended himself by saying that d1 is a shitshow and he tends to be lost, but this d1 seems very productive for how big the game is, very odd. Could be philosophical differences but I'm not buying that right now.
I hate that Foxcastle was so adamant about getting right to business but has not done anything important. No vote, no push. We gave him what he wanted. This is how he rewards us?
dargorygel has done a lot of the "helpful" commentary style questions but hasn't landed anywhere interesting, just obviously dead-end pushes like Flavius and MoscowFleet.

ND

^^aggressively unhelpful. Seems a lot like a shtick he has but I don't really care, being aggressive and unproductive at the same time gets you on the naughty list until you do something cool. Admittedly I get a slight feeling that scum wouldn't tempt people to hang them by being obnoxious, but if this is his shtick then that's NAI and we're back to him being unhelpful.

[ND]

I’ll start with some more recent observations. How the hell did Cruuaader read 30+++ pages in the timeframe of a few pages, come to the conclusion to vote no lynch, and then he voted with a semi-colon in the vote after told not to do it with a semicolon by none other than Chippie the retard? It straight up freaking says how to vote in the game start post. His reading comprehension MUST be dog shit and he is probably a liar too. No way anyone can read that many pages with how fast this is moving and come away with it with NO THOUGHTS ON ANYONE? WITH A NO LYNCH AFTER 50 PAGES? Give me a break. God. This is so suspect. Also how come no one really presses him more on this? Wth?

The whole Chippie thing in the mid-20s is mindblowingly dumb. Yes the mods get involved. Yes, no exploiting. Got to be sure with that guy. Anyway, it starts to die down and Chippie starts and I guess has started to drop that ridiculous proof stuff, but Bozo comes in at the tail end votes him with some asymmetrical logic. There is still a lot to digest here and I’m still thinking about what Bozo said. I’m still NAI on Chippie really. I can see scum doing something like what he has done, but on the other hand he is an actual retard and I don’t know or really think he is capable of pulling something like that off.

Foxcastle also is caught in a contradiction. He spends a fair amount of time in the 30s asking about other players: “Despite GM'ing Flavius in the last game, I didn't really read anything he posted*” (pp. 29) and “? (I know, it's ironic that I didn't read the game I ran... But I can see it being the cause of him getting so scumread that town lost...)” (pp. 31)

YET he also says, “Why aren’t ND and Durga going at it like battle cats yet?” (pp. 29)
I put this quote last, but this is first sequentially. It’s interesting to me because he leads with this then makes follow up posts stating he didn’t read portions or in the case of quote 31 the game he ran. However, he implies he has knowledge of me and Durga’s arguments by stating the word *yet*. Is this quote about Durga and myself from 29 based on meta or from M1007? If M1007 it’s a fucking huge contradiction and I would argue that it is. Durga-and myself had a game spanning spat that game overshadowed by Teacon v Xorxes. I find it hard to believe he isn’t referencing this and if so why say he didn’t read the game? Well, in the posts he said he didn’t read the game he was asking others for info about players and by mentioning that argument Durga and I had he also says I am a good player which prompts Durga to reply “please”. It drew a reaction from her which could have easily baited one from me too. Maybe I am overthinking these posts but it looks to me as if there is some game playing and contradictions going on here. Fox needs to respond.

Sidenote on Xorxes he is quieter than usual and why does he need to be summoned to speak?

Out of these observations/thoughts I think I am leaning ##VOTE CRUAADER the most. Reasons, I don't buy that he read this that fast. I can't get over the semi-colon vote since he said he read the game which implies he read the game start post and rules where it says how to vote. He reads as lazy. Uncaring. Sliding under the radar. No thoughts on the game. No thoughts on the players. No thoughts on anything. This is lazy scum in my opinion and one of the best examples of it I think i've seen in a long time.