For the sake of responding, each number comment refers to a bullet point.ghug wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:24 amI think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.worcej wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:52 amI missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.
I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.
They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.
A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.
- Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.
- Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.
- Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.
- Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.
Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.
- Public warnings of infractions are perfect. Using the M62 situation as context, if I was publicly 'spanked', or even removed, for what I did, I strongly believe both Durga and yourself would've been satisfied with that outcome and the situation wouldn't have gotten worse.
- 'Wearing kid gloves' is not something I am good at. I know this about myself and realize it's a shortcoming. This isn't to say that I won't work on it, but I don't see myself always being successful at this because I usually match intensity/tone of conversations. This is obviously troublesome with certain players due to they can be rough and blunt in their own ways, so a lot of my dialogue with others attempts to match that.
This is a long winded way to say I suck at reading between 'socially acceptable and not acceptable' via internet dialogue, especially text based and especially in a public mafia game where we are all talking in the same thread. I benefit more from clearly defined boundaries of what is or is not acceptable.
In general, I approached M63 with a 'don't be a dick' mentality. Like my scum case on you, I could've simply said 'you're not being a raging asshole like normal' and my intended message would've been the same. Instead, I went long-winded and said you were 'being different and not stirring the pot like normal'.
I didn't have a need to even engage with Durga and I didn't avoid her intentionally. The subsequent drama that entered M63 about the 'Unhide thread' is entirely on her for dragging it into the game and quite honestly never needed to be there to begin with. - I don't think 'Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people' is going to work because most insults can apply to groups of people. Even 'asshole' is a word that targets a group of people and is pretty close to the male gendered form of 'bitch'. In my own use, the major difference is aggressive versus passive aggressive in when I use it. This isn't to say that the history of the two words is remotely the same, but in typical use around me both IRL and online, this is the case.
You bring up an interesting point regarding the L word. To speak for myself, the reason why it's incredibly easy for me to not use the L word (though I have slipped as we transitioned) is because there is absolutely no gray area - we've specifically said that word is not acceptable and we need to not use it. It's a clear boundary that I need to respect, thus it's a non-issue for me to move forward with. - I think this works too. M62's shortcoming was the request (and even my realization) for the apology came about when things had escalated significantly. In the heat of the moment, I wanted to fight tooth and nail and go for blood. Reflecting afterwards, I can see how I was completely in the wrong and the instigator and should've just apologized quickly to cool things down.
Like, for trying to explain my thought process a little, let's assume you called her a bitch for how she's acting someday - would her response be the same as it was in M62? I cannot know for sure, but based on her responses in other places my gut says no, it wouldn't have been a big deal and the only reason why is because you have an established friendship. I personally don't understand how this differentiation can exist - both uses of the word are negative reflections of the recipient and the intent was the same (in my eyes) so the negative response should be the same.