MAFIA 75: TROUBLE AT THE PRECINCT [HIDDEN]

[celaph]

I really like this post. Not so sure about Eden as I don't read him well, but many townie points to Byz

Eden called out this post a couple times (see here and here) and rdr ignored it both times. The first time he gave no response and the second time he changed the subject.

this post is really sticking in my craw. getting it wrong on Byz is one thing, but I have never seen rdrivera demur on reading me. it just screams “I’m going to back my guy, but not commit to a position I might need to walk back later” to me.

If I was scum with Byz I would have bussed him hard. Go find a game where I openly defend a scumpartner.

Anyway, don't worry with me, go find the other 3 scum...

I will add that Eden is mostly right here. rdr doesn’t tend to have a problem with reading him. Of their recent games together, rdr didn’t provide early comment on PE in M73 (where PE D1 cop claimed) or M67 (when rdr was scum). In all other games, rdr has had no problem giving reads on PE. See: M68, M70, and M71. @rdr, what makes you feel like you’re bad at reading Eden and why haven’t you responded to his previous comments about the matter? Your refusal to read him and later ignoring his comments feels like scum who wants to avoid confrontation.

In his last post on N1, rdr is still town on Snowy, while being suspicious of Jamie, Bo, and Bona.

Like I said I have pretty good town reads of Rumi, Sabi, Eden, Neon, Worcej and you. And Snowy.

I am a bit suspicious of Jamiet and Bo, maybe Bona. The others are just null.

Yet his first post in D2, he is voting me. It’s unclear how much of D2 rdr has read at this point, nor what has changed his mind (@rdr, care to clarify?).

I still have a lot of pages to read.

Bona is a good wagon. Eden and Snowy are bad wagons.

##vote Celaph

He gives some insight into what might have changed his mind later.

I think Jamiet today got some towny points on the way he qss tryng to get info from nametags and his general play, so he isn't on my radar now

Bo haven't done anything to impress me, but the same can be said about Ghug, Vecna and you to be honest.

Now, Jamie’s nametag posts came after rdr’s vote on me and he had limited substantial posts before rdr’s vote with the notable exception of voting Neon, though it’s unclear if rdr had even read to that point. Assuming rdr is operating off of similar info as he was at EoN, I don’t see why he prefers me as a wagon to Jamie or Bo. It’s more plausible that Snowys SoD vote on me was a notable motivating factor. Side note: this also implies that Chaqa’s vote on Jamie was not of interest, suggesting that Chaqa is not scum with rdr.

There is an argument here that rdr simply choose me over Jamie and Bo for some insignificant reason not worth concerning ourselves with, but that doesn’t explain why he gets incredibly defensive over a tiny amount of push back on his vote.

​​

This doesn't make sense to me. Why would rdr say Bona is a good wagon then immediately vote for Celaph. I don't see any clear reasoning or logic to this.

If Bona and Rivera are scum teammates, maybe it makes sense.

I'd be quite fine with a Rivera wagon.

##Vote rivera

Oh boy, if I'm on personal vanity wagons, I'm basically just the "for awareness" of votes

You don't make any sense with this Bona and Rivera are teammates.

Show me a game where I have openly tried to defend a scum teammate?

If I was scum with Bona I would either buss him hard or ignore him and wait to see if he get less pressure.

So, go to fake another reason to vote me. In fact, It's a bit of OMGUS but I don't think you are doing this on good faith (I like this expression).

##vote Chaqa

How hard is it to understand the reasoning behind Chaqa’s vote? Rdr’s words and vote didn’t match. I don’t think this response fits a scenario where he is just casually voting me. It makes far more sense for rdr to be acting this way when he has an ulterior reason to be invested in it.

This post is also the second post where rdr claims that he doesn’t defend scum teammates. If he has enough self-awareness to know this about himself, I fully expect that he could change it.


When Rdr ultimately switches his vote off of me and onto Vecna, he does so while implying that ghug is bussing Vecna, listing the potential bus as his reason for the vote instead of independently explaining why Vecna is scummy, something he only does later once asked.

That's something I can do.

You can even be bussing him.

##vote Vecna

Anyway, I think someone asked me why Vecna. I usually can easily town read him on his catch up posts where it's easy to follow his thought process. This game I didn't see this and the only moment he seems excited was when Demon was editing the rules document, which is weird.

This implies that rdr sees a connection between ghug and Vecna that he just never explains. Either that, or he has a scum ghug read in his world that he’s trying to set up and is shaping his behavior to try to fit to this prebuilt worldview instead of adapting his worldview to the game. I think the latter option is more likely and not at all towny.

Secondly, while implying that ghug is bussing also implies that ghug is scum, rdr makes no comment on my vote of ghug. No note of support, no comment that his mind has changed. I think he realized that his comments there weren’t towny and just tried to avoid confrontation about it.

As of well into D2, rdr was still townreading Snowy.

I didn't think Byz was scum (in fact I townread her because of one post where he have the same feeling as I did) so I am not scumreading you.

A fact that I don’t think is substantially damped by his later comments that Snowy is trying to set up a cw there.

This post is really interesting. You set three people to be a possible counterwagon without any specific reason.

As I’ve since highlighted, Snowy made lots of people potential counterwagons with rdr far from leading that list. I think that fact would be obvious to any honest interpretation of even just Snowy’s votes from the day. I think the only reason rdr called attention to the counterwagon on himself was to use it later days.

With that in mind, I doubt the veracity of his comment at EoN3

I called him on shading me and setting counterwagons and he just ignored and voted me without any reasoning as soon as I become a wagon. Should have trusted my instincts and voted him but I fell for the bomb bullshit.

I think it’s stretching the facts to say that he would have voted Snowy if not for the bomb stuff. He wasn’t scumreading Snowy for most of the day and even when he supposedly was, his reasoning wasn’t good and his vote was on Vecna. It’s more plainly false to note that Snowy didn’t just vote for him as soon as he became a wagon. Chaqa had started the rdr wagon long before Snowy became the second member. He’s also lying by omission to leave out the fact that at the end of the day, Snowy pushed against his wagon.

[celaph]

More generally, I would characterize rdr’s game as one of avoiding potential confrontations. He avoiding reading PE D1 and also avoiding responding to PE’s follow up comments about the issue. He avoided commenting on Jamie’s D2 scumread of him and my D2 vote on ghug. He only commented on my D2 scumread of him to call me scummy for it without substantial analysis. N3 he avoided providing a read of any substance on Vecna and was incredibly meager is his scumread on Vecna D4. He was happy to call me scum for not commenting on Snowy’s cw on him, but as soon as I went point for point showing where he was wrong he just dropped the issue instead of contesting.

And Vecna get a big question mark.

[celaph]

What about their reaction makes you think "scum" and not it being some sort of ego issue/town being upset that anyone dares vote them?

I could see either reaction rn, so I'm curious what is making it stand out as specifically scummy to you.

I'm liking the way Byz is approaching this game. Me thinks they (Byz pronounds?) town.

lots of talking about byz/rumi & crowd. this post doesn't actually take a stance on the issue being discussed, and to be honest - byz's post isn't even that great. i don't really see why celaph likes the approach.

He was saying the same things that I was thinking.

I've caught up in reading which was a mistake because I'll be tired tomorrow.

@jamie, I think you're barking up the wrong tree in Eden. He was obviously minimally concerned with the votes on him so early especially the arguably sarcastic vote from Sabi. His comment about not reading the setup was entirely forgettable, notwithstanding the fact that I had forgotten about it until you asked what people thought about his lies and I searched for what you were looking for. And I'm a little put off by the fact that you are fixated on this minutia while ignoring the rest of Eden's actions. Because the way that he has been questioning people to learn more and explaining his views in a way that I can easily see where he is coming from are incredibly towny.

calls eden towny

i wish celaph had more takes n shit i could read

Eden is incredibly towny = I townread Eden. I think in general, when you're complaining about me opining instead of analyzing, the disconnect is purely between the way I'm writing and the way you're expecting the content to be presenting. For example, the fact that Sabi was defending both Byz and Neon was NAI for Sabi because they clearly were defending the two in distinct ways that let their reads come through.

[celaph]

I don't like this sentiment about the deathbomb nametag being something that we have to force out. It feels like the time that scum ghug pushed me out because of fears of the 3P alien winning. Yes, we may lose a towny if the scum successfully deploy the bomb later. That said, if snowy is town we also lose a town now just to get rid of the bomb.

tl;dr only vote Snowy if you honestly think that he is scum. Voting purely to get the bomb out is anti-town.

at this time snowy and sabi were tied at 5-5. people thought snowy had the bomb and some people (i remember saying this, definitely others though) wanted to remove the bomb, so this line of argument pushes against a snowy wagon. incidentally, celaph (also rdr) would both jump onto sabi within minutes

Sabi isn't the best counter wagon here, but I feel like snowy has been townier over the past day by a long shot. Still up to speedwagon rdr, but ##vote Sabi

making explicit the pro-snowy, not anti-sabi, nature of his vote

Bo you probably didn't get to read this post at D2 -00:15 before EOD
ghug you have no excuse, I made it clear ahead of time that I wanted Deathbomb gone and Sabi dying was cool so long as it was collateral damage from Snowy dying

If anything I switched too late and the momentum of the meme pick won easily. Go yell at Eden and Chaqa for that.

Just because you said it earlier doesn't make this perspective not anti-town. At worst, deathbomb kills one town. Killing someone you think is town to get rid of the deathbomb is trading down.

is this a s cumslip? but this time it's questionable if it's ironic

##vote Snowy ##end

We don't need a second wagon to confirm that Snowy has the deathbomb, we can always just read his name tag once it flips. Though I'm not complaining about HB as a second wagon.

wat
i feel like this is inconsistent with the post i just quoted but not totally - is this not voting to remove the deathbomb?

I'll take your shade here. I definitely townread snowy D2 and didn't explain it well until after D2.

I don't see how you see my post as a scum slip. My concern D2 is that people were voting Snowy expecting Snowy to flip town and use his bomb take out Sabi expecting them to flip scum. Any town who thought like that should just vote Sabi and doing otherwise is giving cover to scum.

D3 after Snowy was outed and his slot vacant, we have the option of making Snowy the only wagon thus leading to the deathbomb killing no one if he has it. People were advocating alternative wagons for the deathbomb, namely worcej offered himself, while we needed no such thing.

Ok. I think you reached your conclusion first and now you're confbiasing anything that appears to support your view rather than actually examining the evidence with an open mind, but, ok.

I feel like you’re being put off by Bona’s delivery more so than his content here. Yes, I agree that her confusion mid-D2 about her tag felt incredibly towny, but it’s also the only thing I find towny about the slot since, perhaps, her early D1 Rumi comments. How can you have someone so towny when almost nothing they’ve done all game feels that way?

valid read but then also zero push on neon despite her doing two townie things in 72 hours

I scumread Neon, but not confidently. Then, as part of my first posts on D4, I reviewed HB, grew more confident in my scumread, and put my vote there.

Reviewing rdr's contributions from N2-now I don't feel a desire to solve the game, but rather an obligation to keep playing.

When he went back to review the D1 votes, he purely gave points based on where they ended up with no additional analysis. Particularly egregious when he makes no attempt to read anything from Vecna from his votes.

I think Snowy played really well getting a miskill D2.

Looking D1 votes close to EOD, Chaqa get some town points for putting Byz tied with Damo.

Worcej get some scum points for putting Damo tied with Byz again when Damo wagon was losing momentum.

Rumi gets more town points for his vote.

If Ghug wasn't clear I would be pushing him to death.

And Vecna get a big question mark.

When Eden called out rdr's earlier avoidance of reading him, he entirely ignored Eden's primary concern and just responded to the other part

If I was scum with Byz I would have bussed him hard. Go find a game where I openly defend a scumpartner.

Anyway, don't worry with me, go find the other 3 scum...

When making comments about his wagon, he resorted to a blanket celaph/worcej are getting scummier. There is no analysis here, no attempt to post anything besides the minimum of what's tolerable.

Worcej is going down fast on my townreads. His willingness to park a vote on me when I was the counter to Snowy also makes me suspect him. Same is valid for Celaph but I don't think both are scum, probably just one.

And he showed little interest in his votes today such that it feels like he is entirely just going through the motions.


Nothing recent I see from rdr feels towny. There is no desire to solve the game. The only thing that gives me pause is that while I expect town rdr to be doing much better than this I also expect scum rdr to be doing better. Perhaps we just have the scum team dead to rights (rdr, HB, Vecna perhaps?), but it also makes me worry that something out of game is interfering with play.

this man criticizes rdr for no analysis but then just caps this shit off with 'nothing i see feels townie and i can't think of why he would do this as his alignment' which is frankly just lazy

Clearly I could do with being more explicit. I scumleaned rdr. That's the simplest and cleanest explanation of his actions. The extent to which he was absent made me wonder whether there was a NAI explanation of his behavior. That uncertainty meant that he was no longer a slam dunk case, not that he was unreadable.

On reread I still can’t find anything towny in Princess Neon despite their apparent mid-D2 confusion. Bo and Bona have highlighted a lot of her scummines.

As for HB:
big snip here

##vote HB
I don’t get the sense that HB trying to sort people even with the limited amount of information he has. I also get the consistent vibe that he is talking to town instead of as one of town.

copycatting my readspost smh
he still agrees with some of what HB says and some soft defending ("I find it notable that you called us wrong in this way. If you were finding the push on you scummy, you’d have surely called that out instead of just saying that people were wrong." - also saying 'us' here implicitly puts celaph in the group of town)

I agreed with HB's comments on you and Eden. The rest of his work I objected to.

he has a big wallpost on rdr debunking various claims n shit he made, but still doesn't make a read

I explained this in part 2 posts after this and in part at EoN. I could see rdr as either town VT or doc given the way he was softing PR. I clearly thought his behavior was anti-town, but I was no longer convinced that he was scum and withheld judgement until I heard more from him.

[celaph]

@celaph why don't you make readslists

I always had one partly written, but hadn't thoroughly reviewed everyone at one time until last night. Instead I was just posting the parts of my list that were changing as I read through people.

[celaph]

@celaph, @rd, I need you both to either consent to hammering yourself if we decide you're the one to kill or explain why that is a bad idea.

Scum should know where the vote tags are, so I think they just win if I die. I see no reason to hammer the end of the game.

[celaph]

@Chaqa, why do you scumread me?

[worcej]

I need someone other than Chaqa double checking mechanics because he's probably scum.

Won’t be me until late tonight.

[worcej]

More generally, I would characterize rdr’s game as one of avoiding potential confrontations. He avoiding reading PE D1 and also avoiding responding to PE’s follow up comments about the issue. He avoided commenting on Jamie’s D2 scumread of him and my D2 vote on ghug. He only commented on my D2 scumread of him to call me scummy for it without substantial analysis. N3 he avoided providing a read of any substance on Vecna and was incredibly meager is his scumread on Vecna D4. He was happy to call me scum for not commenting on Snowy’s cw on him, but as soon as I went point for point showing where he was wrong he just dropped the issue instead of contesting.

And Vecna get a big question mark.

The first sentence here is part of why I believe rdr more than you - he gave off PR vibes by being lack of confrontational and distant.

[worcej]

rd I think you should just tell us what you have.

I have nothing. My role is passive, so I don't visit and don't get any indication someone visited me (of course someone visited me and drop 2x vote).

I peeked last night but seems Demon isn't around to answer me.

I am growing suspicious of your peek claim now…

[Chaqa]

@Chaqa, why do you scumread me?

Because you're scum

[Chaqa]

I have D&D today until about an hour before the theoretical EoD if we hammer.

I'm content to hammer any of celaph, bo, and rivera today.

Just let me know where to vote. I will follow Bona's orders

[bo_sox48]

Thinking for yourself is hard

[Chaqa]

Thinking for yourself is hard

Are you capable of not being a miserable bastard?

[bo_sox48]

Yes

[Bonatogether]

I'm liking the way Byz is approaching this game. Me thinks they (Byz pronounds?) town.

lots of talking about byz/rumi & crowd. this post doesn't actually take a stance on the issue being discussed, and to be honest - byz's post isn't even that great. i don't really see why celaph likes the approach.

He was saying the same things that I was thinking.

hmm. interesting.

I've caught up in reading which was a mistake because I'll be tired tomorrow.

@jamie, I think you're barking up the wrong tree in Eden. He was obviously minimally concerned with the votes on him so early especially the arguably sarcastic vote from Sabi. His comment about not reading the setup was entirely forgettable, notwithstanding the fact that I had forgotten about it until you asked what people thought about his lies and I searched for what you were looking for. And I'm a little put off by the fact that you are fixated on this minutia while ignoring the rest of Eden's actions. Because the way that he has been questioning people to learn more and explaining his views in a way that I can easily see where he is coming from are incredibly towny.

calls eden towny

i wish celaph had more takes n shit i could read

Eden is incredibly towny = I townread Eden. I think in general, when you're complaining about me opining instead of analyzing, the disconnect is purely between the way I'm writing and the way you're expecting the content to be presenting. For example, the fact that Sabi was defending both Byz and Neon was NAI for Sabi because they clearly were defending the two in distinct ways that let their reads come through.

in previous game you've been willing to confidently state a read instead of this half-stuff that's more like 'he's acting towny' which, as you may notice, isn't actually a stance. if what you say lines up with reality - great, you can take cred. if it doesn't line up - you didn't really make a read so it works out.

however you're dodging my actual point - throughout your game (until after you cced rdr) you've simply have not been making many actual reads.

[ghug]

I have D&D today until about an hour before the theoretical EoD if we hammer.

I'm content to hammer any of celaph, bo, and rivera today.

Just let me know where to vote. I will follow Bona's orders

Wtf

[Bonatogether]

I don't like this sentiment about the deathbomb nametag being something that we have to force out. It feels like the time that scum ghug pushed me out because of fears of the 3P alien winning. Yes, we may lose a towny if the scum successfully deploy the bomb later. That said, if snowy is town we also lose a town now just to get rid of the bomb.

tl;dr only vote Snowy if you honestly think that he is scum. Voting purely to get the bomb out is anti-town.

at this time snowy and sabi were tied at 5-5. people thought snowy had the bomb and some people (i remember saying this, definitely others though) wanted to remove the bomb, so this line of argument pushes against a snowy wagon. incidentally, celaph (also rdr) would both jump onto sabi within minutes

Sabi isn't the best counter wagon here, but I feel like snowy has been townier over the past day by a long shot. Still up to speedwagon rdr, but ##vote Sabi

making explicit the pro-snowy, not anti-sabi, nature of his vote

Just because you said it earlier doesn't make this perspective not anti-town. At worst, deathbomb kills one town. Killing someone you think is town to get rid of the deathbomb is trading down.

is this a s cumslip? but this time it's questionable if it's ironic

##vote Snowy ##end

We don't need a second wagon to confirm that Snowy has the deathbomb, we can always just read his name tag once it flips. Though I'm not complaining about HB as a second wagon.

wat
i feel like this is inconsistent with the post i just quoted but not totally - is this not voting to remove the deathbomb?

I'll take your shade here. I definitely townread snowy D2 and didn't explain it well until after D2.

I don't see how you see my post as a scum slip. My concern D2 is that people were voting Snowy expecting Snowy to flip town and use his bomb take out Sabi expecting them to flip scum. Any town who thought like that should just vote Sabi and doing otherwise is giving cover to scum.

D3 after Snowy was outed and his slot vacant, we have the option of making Snowy the only wagon thus leading to the deathbomb killing no one if he has it. People were advocating alternative wagons for the deathbomb, namely worcej offered himself, while we needed no such thing.

why did you not explain it until afterwards? what prompted you to just state a townread and to then not explain it until the man was dead?

'at worst, deathbomb kills one town' implies that you believed that there was a scum on the block - but your other post, where you vote for sabi because 'snowy has been more towny' (and so there is ZERO stated reasoning that sabi is scum) implies that you believe that there is at least one and possibly two town - in which case, deathbomb would kill two town, in the worst case.

at the time of this post, there was more than just snowy on the block anyways. it couldn't have happened like that.

I feel like you’re being put off by Bona’s delivery more so than his content here. Yes, I agree that her confusion mid-D2 about her tag felt incredibly towny, but it’s also the only thing I find towny about the slot since, perhaps, her early D1 Rumi comments. How can you have someone so towny when almost nothing they’ve done all game feels that way?

valid read but then also zero push on neon despite her doing two townie things in 72 hours

I scumread Neon, but not confidently. Then, as part of my first posts on D4, I reviewed HB, grew more confident in my scumread, and put my vote there.

if you say they have two townie things in 72 hours (= one towny thing every day and a half), why on earth would you not be confident? Then once it looks like HB is going to flip (after me and eden dunk hard on him), then you finally come around and start going hard - despite the same pieces that you use to argue not being fundamentally new from after that. your argument came at a time when nothing had really changed except that HB was going to die.

Reviewing rdr's contributions from N2-now I don't feel a desire to solve the game, but rather an obligation to keep playing.

When he went back to review the D1 votes, he purely gave points based on where they ended up with no additional analysis. Particularly egregious when he makes no attempt to read anything from Vecna from his votes.



When Eden called out rdr's earlier avoidance of reading him, he entirely ignored Eden's primary concern and just responded to the other part


When making comments about his wagon, he resorted to a blanket celaph/worcej are getting scummier. There is no analysis here, no attempt to post anything besides the minimum of what's tolerable.


And he showed little interest in his votes today such that it feels like he is entirely just going through the motions.


Nothing recent I see from rdr feels towny. There is no desire to solve the game. The only thing that gives me pause is that while I expect town rdr to be doing much better than this I also expect scum rdr to be doing better. Perhaps we just have the scum team dead to rights (rdr, HB, Vecna perhaps?), but it also makes me worry that something out of game is interfering with play.

this man criticizes rdr for no analysis but then just caps this shit off with 'nothing i see feels townie and i can't think of why he would do this as his alignment' which is frankly just lazy

Clearly I could do with being more explicit. I scumleaned rdr. That's the simplest and cleanest explanation of his actions. The extent to which he was absent made me wonder whether there was a NAI explanation of his behavior. That uncertainty meant that he was no longer a slam dunk case, not that he was unreadable.

clearly you could do with receiving a town pm one of these days. what was so hard about saying that? and why didn't you? and instead, why did you insert this massive hedge that you could not understand why he was playing as he was with any possible alignment ("The only thing that gives me pause is that while I expect town rdr to be doing much better than this I also expect scum rdr to be doing better")

On reread I still can’t find anything towny in Princess Neon despite their apparent mid-D2 confusion. Bo and Bona have highlighted a lot of her scummines.

As for HB:
big snip here

##vote HB
I don’t get the sense that HB trying to sort people even with the limited amount of information he has. I also get the consistent vibe that he is talking to town instead of as one of town.

copycatting my readspost smh
he still agrees with some of what HB says and some soft defending ("I find it notable that you called us wrong in this way. If you were finding the push on you scummy, you’d have surely called that out instead of just saying that people were wrong." - also saying 'us' here implicitly puts celaph in the group of town)

I agreed with HB's comments on you and Eden. The rest of his work I objected to.

why did you only object after HB came under significant pressure?

he has a big wallpost on rdr debunking various claims n shit he made, but still doesn't make a read

I explained this in part 2 posts after this and in part at EoN. I could see rdr as either town VT or doc given the way he was softing PR. I clearly thought his behavior was anti-town, but I was no longer convinced that he was scum and withheld judgement until I heard more from him.

so despite you apparently believing that he was acting in an 'anti-town' manner, you lessened your scumread on him because he was potentially one of the living town roles out there (VT/doc). what would make you believe, despite the fact that you were more convinced he was acting against town, that he was more likely to be actually town (as shown through your lessened scumread)

[Bonatogether]

@celaph why don't you make readslists

I always had one partly written, but hadn't thoroughly reviewed everyone at one time until last night. Instead I was just posting the parts of my list that were changing as I read through people.

why didn't you indicate this in thread prior to now?

[Bonatogether]

I have D&D today until about an hour before the theoretical EoD if we hammer.

I'm content to hammer any of celaph, bo, and rivera today.

Just let me know where to vote. I will follow Bona's orders

i believe today should always be between rdr and celaph, and within them, i want to vote celaph