M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

I never said you did that.

I said you gave no indication at all of your willingness to vote for Maniac.

You claimed you "made it pretty clear" that you would vote for Maniac. This was false. It was a lie. You gave no indication whatsoever that you were willing to vote for Maniac. Your position on HR is not the issue.

It is, because I said I made it pretty clear that I would vote for Maniac over HR.

You did not make that clear because you did not make any reference to Maniac in your voting intentions.

How can you claim you gave a "pretty clear" indication as to whether you would or would not vote Maniac? The only thing that is clear is that you did not do so, at all, and now you are lying about it for some reason.

I made it clear I didn't want HR dead. That means I would have voted for a null read over him. Jesus Christ.

[Jamiet99uk]

Maniac was already looking very scummy. Now this lie from Ghug, concerning Maniac, is very interesting.

Ok, I'm done engaging with you. It's not a lie, you're just bad at understanding things.

Kgray's questioning is legitimate. Yours is stupid and nitpicky.

Let me put it another way, Ghug, and I'm trying to be kind to you here.

If you had said "I made it clear that I would not vote for HR", then that would be fine. I agree it was pretty clear you didn't want to vote for HR.

If you had said "I was thinking about voting for Maniac, although I didn't actually mention it at the time" that would also potentially stack up, if indeed that's what you were thinking.

But what you actually said was that you, quote, "made pretty clear with my posting that I would vote for Maniac over HR". I think we have established as a matter of plain fact that did not display any clear voting intention as pertains to Maniac, whatsoever.

That's all.

So either you lied or you made a mistake (and I'm giving you a lot of benefit of doubt there), but your claim to have made it "pretty clear" you'd vote for Maniac is just wrong.

[Jamiet99uk]

Let's all accept that Ghug is either scum with Maniac, or a very poor communicator, and move on for now.

[ghug]

Maniac was already looking very scummy. Now this lie from Ghug, concerning Maniac, is very interesting.

Ok, I'm done engaging with you. It's not a lie, you're just bad at understanding things.

Kgray's questioning is legitimate. Yours is stupid and nitpicky.

Let me put it another way, Ghug, and I'm trying to be kind to you here.

If you had said "I made it clear that I would not vote for HR", then that would be fine. I agree it was pretty clear you didn't want to vote for HR.

If you had said "I was thinking about voting for Maniac, although I didn't actually mention it at the time" that would also potentially stack up, if indeed that's what you were thinking.

But what you actually said was that you, quote, "made pretty clear with my posting that I would vote for Maniac over HR". I think we have established as a matter of plain fact that did not display any clear voting intention as pertains to Maniac, whatsoever.

That's all.

So either you lied or you made a mistake (and I'm giving you a lot of benefit of doubt there), but your claim to have made it "pretty clear" you'd vote for Maniac is just wrong.

Ok, let's pretend you're arguing in good faith for a minute.

We've probably played about 40 mafia games together. I'm confident that you know I'm not a vanity voter.

I staked out strong positions on two of the three wagons: darg, whom I was pushing, and HR, whom I was defending. We agree that I had not staked out a strong position on Maniac.

Now, say my preferred wagon (darg) tapers off, and the other two remain in close contention as the only relevant wagon in the final five minutes.

1) Given what we both know about how I play as either alignment, do you expect me to:
a) move to HR
b) move to Maniac
c) stay on darg and whine
d) other?

2) How confident are you in your answer to 1)?

3) Would you heavily scrutinize me if my behavior did not match your answer to 1)?

[ghug]

Let's all accept that Ghug is either scum with Maniac, or a very poor communicator, and move on for now.

No u

[Jamiet99uk]

@Ghug:

You had not staked out a strong position on Maniac, but you had implied you didn't like his wagon. You were critical of people for voting him, and advocated alternative wagons instead.

Given that situation (and also assuming that you are town for the purposes of this question):

1) I would go for (c) or (d).

2) No more than 60% as I don't always find your behaviour easy to predict.

3) Probably.

[Jamiet99uk]

Let's all accept that Ghug is either scum with Maniac, or a very poor communicator, and move on for now.

No u

Well look, I think these posts are contradictory:

I ... made pretty clear with my posting that I would vote for Maniac over HR if it came down to it.

It's not my job to be clear.

Either you claim you made yourself clear, or it's not your job to be clear, but not both.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Ghug: What is your read on Maniac now?

[ghug]

@Ghug:

You had not staked out a strong position on Maniac, but you had implied you didn't like his wagon. You were critical of people for voting him, and advocated alternative wagons instead.

Given that situation (and also assuming that you are town for the purposes of this question):

1) I would go for (c) or (d).

2) No more than 60% as I don't always find your behaviour easy to predict.

3) Probably.

I suspect that most people who have played with me as many times as you have would have answered b) with a high degree of confidence. I always make my vote count unless I'm not around at EoD. There's where we differ.

There are things to be suspicious of me for. Questioning Maniac voters without overtly townreading him (again, look. Whining about the death of a townie who I couldn't even save. My belief that my positions were clear in retrospect is not one of them.

[ghug]

Let's all accept that Ghug is either scum with Maniac, or a very poor communicator, and move on for now.

No u

Well look, I think these posts are contradictory:

I ... made pretty clear with my posting that I would vote for Maniac over HR if it came down to it.

It's not my job to be clear.

Either you claim you made yourself clear, or it's not your job to be clear, but not both.

It's not my job to be clear in the moment. It's my job to leave artefacts that can create expectations for my behavior in retrospect.

[Jamiet99uk]

It's my job to leave artefacts.

Who do you think you are, ancient Egypt?

[Jamiet99uk]

SCENE: Ghug's family kitchen. It's breakfast time. A sleepy Ghug emerges from his basement room.

Ghug's Mom: "GHUG! Please get properly dressed. You've been wearing that set of Aquaman pyjamas for a week now. Anyway, what do you want for breakfast?"

Ghug: "I definitely don't want any fruit!"

Mom: "Okay, well, we've got cereal, eggs, or you could have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich"

Ghug: "Hm, well, I'm not sure eggs would be a good choice..."

Mom: "Okay Ghuggle, here's a nice bowl of cereal. Looks like all the rest of the family are having fruit salad"

Ghug: "Dammit mom! Cereal? I made it pretty clear I'd have been happy with the eggs!"

[Hamilton Brian]

Catch-up continued. Page 118

- Maniac quotes a post from ghug where they crap all over Jamie again and subsequently chastises the both of them.
After my ashes and sackcloth post, Maniac suggests it's interesting that I think I'll still be around for D3.

- Jamie emphasizes "staged" from Maniac's post

- Dargorygel with a post detailing heath concerns. Get better Dargorygel!!!

- I think I missed a post from teacon, including quotes from ghug. In ghug's reply, they suggest a number of things. a) didn't vote for Maniac because they wanted one of darg, bo, kgray, Jamie, or damo b) would have voted Maniac if it was between them and HR, but I worked to form a wagon on a scumread instead.

- Ghug's subsequent post rebutting teacon's question of who was leading kills on who and that they didn't see Jamie pushing for people to move to an absent player. Ghug's reply is asking when he suggested Jamie was pushing people onto an absent player. Jamie was the oldest vote on HR and that he was questioning others on their reads of HR "in hopes of sitting up votes. He was the key to that kill."

- Ghug didn't like my ash and sackcloth post

- Bo quoting Maniac's post; Jamie's wagon was down to one vote (Maniac) with 47 minutes to go. If the wagon was not going to grow, why didn't Maniac attempt to convince others to join the wagon. There's a lot of pointed questions in there that I'd like to see Maniac's responses to. Read it herehttps://www.webdiplomacy.net/contrib/ph ... 03#p186703 if you need the refresher.


- Bo asking Jamie if they indeed will vote for Maniac. In a subsequent post, Jamies affirms they will.

- Bo responds to the ghug/teacon tandem about strong conclusions by admitting that the post was being written before the flip because of their certainty and was watching how the wagon was growing.



-

[ghug]

@Ghug: What is your read on Maniac now?

I've always found Maniac hard to read, so it's still somewhere in the null zone. There are two things that stick out to me. One, that he's a little more present and understandable than last game, which pushes a little towards scum, but not a lot, since people still aren't liking him and last game's performance warrants an adjustment. Two, that there wasn't a rush of votes onto HR when he was a competing wagon, which either means he's town or several of his teammates were already on him or HR coming into the end of the day. I also dislike that bo wants him dead so much.

What's your read on bo?

[ghug]

SCENE: Ghug's family kitchen. It's breakfast time. A sleepy Ghug emerges from his basement room.

Ghug's Mom: "GHUG! Please get properly dressed. You've been wearing that set of Aquaman pyjamas for a week now. Anyway, what do you want for breakfast?"

Ghug: "I definitely don't want any fruit!"

Mom: "Okay, well, we've got cereal, eggs, or you could have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich"

Ghug: "Hm, well, I'm not sure eggs would be a good choice..."

Mom: "Okay Ghuggle, here's a nice bowl of cereal. Looks like all the rest of the family are having fruit salad"

Ghug: "Dammit mom! Cereal? I made it pretty clear I'd have been happy with the eggs!"

Swap in the ultrasoft bathrobe for the pyjamas and we're there.

[Hamilton Brian]

Page 119

- Bunny addresses an earlier post of mine about the hammering to disrupt mafia on day 1. THey say they'd pretend in public about junking a rule the GM wouldn't allow, offer the "I tried," and such tactics are NAI or slight scum tells.

- Bunny calls this post from Jamie "truth" : Dargy saying "teacon is my favourite kill today" at the same time as moving his vote OFF Teacon while teacon was the lead wagon, and now Teacon trying to save Dargorygel, is bothering me.

- RDR suggesting there'll be scum on the HR wagon; their vote on D3 will not go outside of these people

-Ghug presents an ISO of Bo that can be summarized as: townreading me and HR, hedged reads on ghug and Jamie. "Town bo would have more reads."

- GHug and Maniac catching up over old times

-Damo suggesting that of the HR wagon, townread Jamie, Vecna, and Darg. At least 2 scum in Seth, Chaqa, Maniac, and myself.

- RDR counters Damo with: not so sure about Vecna; town Vecna wouldn't have voted HR that way.

[BunnyGo]

Page 119

- Bunny addresses an earlier post of mine about the hammering to disrupt mafia on day 1. THey say they'd pretend in public about junking a rule the GM wouldn't allow, offer the "I tried," and such tactics are NAI or slight scum tells.

- Bunny calls this post from Jamie "truth" : Dargy saying "teacon is my favourite kill today" at the same time as moving his vote OFF Teacon while teacon was the lead wagon, and now Teacon trying to save Dargorygel, is bothering me.

- RDR suggesting there'll be scum on the HR wagon; their vote on D3 will not go outside of these people

-Ghug presents an ISO of Bo that can be summarized as: townreading me and HR, hedged reads on ghug and Jamie. "Town bo would have more reads."

- GHug and Maniac catching up over old times

-Damo suggesting that of the HR wagon, townread Jamie, Vecna, and Darg. At least 2 scum in Seth, Chaqa, Maniac, and myself.

- RDR counters Damo with: not so sure about Vecna; town Vecna wouldn't have voted HR that way.

- Bunny wondering if Hamilton Brian has a point to any of this of likes being a chronicler.

-Bunny stating he thinks the best thing someone with time could do is chronicle the last hour of day 2 with time stamped vote analysis and non-vote statements of support/belief

-Bunny musing that he may have time to do this analysis before EON, but may not. If he dies, his final wish is that someone do a good job of it. If he lives till tomorrow, he’ll do it.

[BunnyGo]

*or likes

[ghug]

So quiet.

[ghug]

@kgray you told me darg was a townread halfway through D2. Why were you willing to vote for him later?