M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

I know, and you said you didn't think we should, which is why I'm questioning it.

I don't understand how a towny with half a brain push the lynch of HR based on such a weak case. So, I think there are a greater chance to get scum on the HR wagon. I don't see a single solid townread on that wagon. HB was one but it melted after yesterday

I mostly agree with this, except that I still townread Hamilton and I'm starting to feel a lot better about Jamie.

You don't feel like his two posts in our argument here were designed to fan the flames without leading it himself?

[ghug]

Did you read my response to kgray doing the same thing, Jamie?

I'm not saying I wanted Maniac dead. I'm saying I established opinions, specifically the one on HR, that would have made voting HR over him very suspicious.

Yes I can see your desperate back-pedalling. You initially said you made it clear that you'd vote for Maniac if needed. It's very, very clear you absolutely never said any such thing. You lied.

I said "I made pretty clear with my posting" not "I said". There was a reason for this distinction.

[kgray]

It didn't come down to it. I was on a wagon that was tied with HR and ahead of Maniac, and then a bunch of people voted HR.

If you hadn't moved to darg, I could have put Maniac ahead, but you did.

You never once implied you would do that. You appeared to be actively avoiding/discrediting the Maniac wagon. I moved to darg because I thought he might get more traction than Maniac but obviously I wouldn't have done that if it seemed like you would join me on Maniac.

Again I'm not saying "I gladly would have killed Maniac". I wanted darg dead. If you had thought about what I could be expected to do in the final minutes between HR and Maniac, though, it should have been obvious which I would have chosen.

Why would I, as Maniac's teammate trying to save him, adamantly argue against his most viable counterwagon?

Maybe you should be more clear then. And clear as in actually say what you're thinking, instead of expecting people to read your mind close to the deadline when there are a bunch of things going on.

I don't think arguing against a counterwagon is a very convincing argument to why you couldn't be Maniac's teammate when you didn't end up voting for Maniac but instead formed a different wagon 10 minutes before EOD.

[kgray]

I don't understand how a towny with half a brain push the lynch of HR based on such a weak case. So, I think there are a greater chance to get scum on the HR wagon. I don't see a single solid townread on that wagon. HB was one but it melted after yesterday

I mostly agree with this, except that I still townread Hamilton and I'm starting to feel a lot better about Jamie.

You don't feel like his two posts in our argument here were designed to fan the flames without leading it himself?

That is possible, yes, but it's not the overall feeling I'm getting.

[ghug]

You never once implied you would do that. You appeared to be actively avoiding/discrediting the Maniac wagon. I moved to darg because I thought he might get more traction than Maniac but obviously I wouldn't have done that if it seemed like you would join me on Maniac.

Again I'm not saying "I gladly would have killed Maniac". I wanted darg dead. If you had thought about what I could be expected to do in the final minutes between HR and Maniac, though, it should have been obvious which I would have chosen.

Why would I, as Maniac's teammate trying to save him, adamantly argue against his most viable counterwagon?

Maybe you should be more clear then. And clear as in actually say what you're thinking, instead of expecting people to read your mind close to the deadline when there are a bunch of things going on.

I don't think arguing against a counterwagon is a very convincing argument to why you couldn't be Maniac's teammate when you didn't end up voting for Maniac but instead formed a different wagon 10 minutes before EOD.

It's not my job to be clear.

Townies should always be staking out positions that they're comfortable holding to, because it forces scum to do the same or look suspicious (see bo's complete lack of opinions on most of the people in the game). They only need to be apparent in retrospect, though, which I maintain this position was.

What I've learned from this is that neither you nor Jamie was thinking that closely about counting or whipping votes near EoD, which tells me neither of you was terribly invested in the outcome.

[Jamiet99uk]

Did you read my response to kgray doing the same thing, Jamie?

I'm not saying I wanted Maniac dead. I'm saying I established opinions, specifically the one on HR, that would have made voting HR over him very suspicious.

Yes I can see your desperate back-pedalling. You initially said you made it clear that you'd vote for Maniac if needed. It's very, very clear you absolutely never said any such thing. You lied.

I said "I made pretty clear with my posting" not "I said". There was a reason for this distinction.

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

[Jamiet99uk]

*defending him or criticising people...

[kgray]

Again I'm not saying "I gladly would have killed Maniac". I wanted darg dead. If you had thought about what I could be expected to do in the final minutes between HR and Maniac, though, it should have been obvious which I would have chosen.

Why would I, as Maniac's teammate trying to save him, adamantly argue against his most viable counterwagon?

Maybe you should be more clear then. And clear as in actually say what you're thinking, instead of expecting people to read your mind close to the deadline when there are a bunch of things going on.

I don't think arguing against a counterwagon is a very convincing argument to why you couldn't be Maniac's teammate when you didn't end up voting for Maniac but instead formed a different wagon 10 minutes before EOD.

It's not my job to be clear.

Townies should always be staking out positions that they're comfortable holding to, because it forces scum to do the same or look suspicious (see bo's complete lack of opinions on most of the people in the game). They only need to be apparent in retrospect, though, which I maintain this position was.

What I've learned from this is that neither you nor Jamie was thinking that closely about counting or whipping votes near EoD, which tells me neither of you was terribly invested in the outcome.

Cool. What I've learned is that you were a lot more motivated to speak out against HR dying than to actually vote to save him, which tells me that you want to sound like you're doing townie things without being terribly invested in getting them done.

[ghug]

Yes I can see your desperate back-pedalling. You initially said you made it clear that you'd vote for Maniac if needed. It's very, very clear you absolutely never said any such thing. You lied.

I said "I made pretty clear with my posting" not "I said". There was a reason for this distinction.

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

[kgray]

I said "I made pretty clear with my posting" not "I said". There was a reason for this distinction.

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

How is this relevant?

[ghug]

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

How is this relevant?

He said I gave the opposite impression of the one I'm now claiming, which is that I would have voted for Maniac over HR.

[ghug]

Maybe you should be more clear then. And clear as in actually say what you're thinking, instead of expecting people to read your mind close to the deadline when there are a bunch of things going on.

I don't think arguing against a counterwagon is a very convincing argument to why you couldn't be Maniac's teammate when you didn't end up voting for Maniac but instead formed a different wagon 10 minutes before EOD.

It's not my job to be clear.

Townies should always be staking out positions that they're comfortable holding to, because it forces scum to do the same or look suspicious (see bo's complete lack of opinions on most of the people in the game). They only need to be apparent in retrospect, though, which I maintain this position was.

What I've learned from this is that neither you nor Jamie was thinking that closely about counting or whipping votes near EoD, which tells me neither of you was terribly invested in the outcome.

Cool. What I've learned is that you were a lot more motivated to speak out against HR dying than to actually vote to save him, which tells me that you want to sound like you're doing townie things without being terribly invested in getting them done.

This is a fairer criticism. Loudly lamenting the death of townies predeath is often a thing scum do.

[Jamiet99uk]

I said "I made pretty clear with my posting" not "I said". There was a reason for this distinction.

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

I never said you did that.

I said you gave no indication at all of your willingness to vote for Maniac.

You claimed you "made it pretty clear" that you would vote for Maniac. This was false. It was a lie. You gave no indication whatsoever that you were willing to vote for Maniac. Your position on HR is not the issue.

[kgray]

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

How is this relevant?

He said I gave the opposite impression of the one I'm now claiming, which is that I would have voted for Maniac over HR.

This is a blatant mischaracterization of his argument. He is saying the impression you are claiming now is that you'd have happily moved to Maniac to save HR, while the impression you gave yesterday was that you were not interested in moving to Maniac.

[ghug]

Well I don't think you made it clear at all. Your only relevant mentions of Maniac involved you defending him of criticising people voting for him. If anything this gives the opposite impression than the one you are now claiming.

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

I never said you did that.

I said you gave no indication at all of your willingness to vote for Maniac.

You claimed you "made it pretty clear" that you would vote for Maniac. This was false. It was a lie. You gave no indication whatsoever that you were willing to vote for Maniac. Your position on HR is not the issue.

It is, because I said I made it pretty clear that I would vote for Maniac over HR.

[Hamilton Brian]

Trying to get a line on the events from yesterday. It's the best way I can synthesize a lot of what transpired.
Page 116:
-double vote went on Teacon; Flum's disembodied vote landed on Kgray

- Bo makes a fairly pointed post; most reasons to vote HR were unclear other than Vecna's. As of that post, planning to vote for Maniac because they voted for someone they didn't scumread and waited for the tie to be broken to move their vote.

- Chaqa voting kgray no matter what on Day 3

- Teacon asserting the VCA will be "great." Wondering how the flashwagon started but positing that it wasn't to save HR and theorizes that ghug/kgray didn't want the Maniac/kgray wagons to take off.

Page 117:
- ghug presents, in their response to teacon, that they wanted the kgray wagon to take off. Posted that they would move to Maniac if it "came down to it." Need to spend some more time with this piece: I agree that kgray's vote for darg when it didn't make the wagon bigger than Maniac's was a bit odd, but I think it would be more damning if HR had flipped scum. Doesn't care for Bo and Chaqa declaring strong conclusions after the flip.

- Maniac replies to Bo; wants their vote to count rather than be wasted. Some procedurizing with When double voters are playing and could be scum we have to make sure that isn't used to force a tie or save someone

- Kgray defends their vote on Darg with stating a preference for them over HR and it was an act of trying to save HR.

- Maniac would have preferred a Jamie wagon; there was, I presume, a typo because they state that if a late wagon formed on someone they scumread, they wouldn't [sic} move there. Hammering on HR's wagon to ensure no ties seemed like best play to them.

[Jamiet99uk]

Maniac was already looking very scummy. Now this lie from Ghug, concerning Maniac, is very interesting.

[Jamiet99uk]

Show me where I gave the impression that I would vote HR over Maniac.

I never said you did that.

I said you gave no indication at all of your willingness to vote for Maniac.

You claimed you "made it pretty clear" that you would vote for Maniac. This was false. It was a lie. You gave no indication whatsoever that you were willing to vote for Maniac. Your position on HR is not the issue.

It is, because I said I made it pretty clear that I would vote for Maniac over HR.

You did not make that clear because you did not make any reference to Maniac in your voting intentions.

How can you claim you gave a "pretty clear" indication as to whether you would or would not vote Maniac? The only thing that is clear is that you did not do so, at all, and now you are lying about it for some reason.

[ghug]

How is this relevant?

He said I gave the opposite impression of the one I'm now claiming, which is that I would have voted for Maniac over HR.

This is a blatant mischaracterization of his argument. He is saying the impression you are claiming now is that you'd have happily moved to Maniac to save HR, while the impression you gave yesterday was that you were not interested in moving to Maniac.

Jamie's actively mischaracterizing what I said, and I'm pointing it out.

I don't think I gave the impression that I was actively disinclined towards voting Maniac either. I questioned your (a scumread) reasons for scumreading him, I listed him as a null read, and I courted votes onto another target over him

[ghug]

Maniac was already looking very scummy. Now this lie from Ghug, concerning Maniac, is very interesting.

Ok, I'm done engaging with you. It's not a lie, you're just bad at understanding things.

Kgray's questioning is legitimate. Yours is stupid and nitpicky.