M1020 — Speed Run Mafia GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[snowy801]

Okay Snowy I read your long post. Pretty much all you talked about was playstyle. How scum would never do this playstyle because of this. And how this playstyle day 2 shows you're town because scum would have done this playstyle instead.

For a guy like you Snowy, playstyle isn't all that alignment indicative. I think scum Snowy is smart enough to know what playstyle town Snowy would be making and mimic it. So for me in day 2 I'm looking more at what reads you've made, what cases you've pushed, what votes you've made, what wagons you coerced, the actions rather than the playstyle. That's where my scumread comes from

None of my reads, cases, and votes should indicate that I'm scum. You're just justifying your reads after the fact because you don't know how to assess the gamestate in any meaningful manner

I am surprised you're not pushing bona/Snowy as the most likely scum pair if this is how you allegedly think, I'd have thought that was the most natural instinct

[snowy801]

I do find it laughable that Jamiet has the temerity to claim that he thinks my play is deserving of death even if I am town because I haven't not done anything, you just don't like what I was doing

Falsehood: I never said you "haven't not done anything" (nice double negative btw). I said what you'd done was awfully scummy, not that you didn't do anything.

So on part, understandable, because acting scummy -> this guy is scum is the intended message I intended to get across, but like come on guys.

If you act scummy on purpose you might get scumread. Surprise!

You have stated that I was being useless D1 more than once. I understand you ever move goalposts in your head to deny your own incapacity, but this is a little much

[bozotheclown]

bozos read on damo evaporating for no reason should be noted if damo flips scum

It was not without reason, the reason was ghug and Squigs had him in their scum pool, so if my theory about ghug and Squigs is correct, I think that makes damo less likely scum. I still think damo is a reasonable scum possibility, and it is not impossible he is scum with ghug and/or Squigs.

[snowy801]

But like, and I would have hoped that this is obvious, if I really am scum why would I go out of my way to do this? Just to be able to say "too scummy to be scum?" Not a brilliant strategy is it. And if my goal was to be elusive about my reads to allow ambiguity to disconnect me from blame on my alleged miskill pushes, why wouldn't I go ahead and actually disconnect from my reads instead of just refusing to talk about it?

Is it too much to expect even the slightest two step thought process regarding how you go about scum reads? I mean apparently, but I don't really believe that this is beyond your capacity, you just need a guiding hand. If I wanted to lurk I would've actually done so instead of hanging around being obnoxious all day. In my own way that was my inciting actionable behavior under the constraints I was putting myself until the end of the day that I saw to be an unconscionably lazy and pathetic effort rise to the top.

If you cannot model an underlying motive for me to act this way and just think that everything I know about what behavior people find scummy flew straight out of my head and I was just being the most transparent scum on the planet then I will not accept blame for unnecessarily muddying the playing field

Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game (for the town majority) is to perform a detailed psychological assessment on Snowy and therefore arrive at a diagnosis which reveals the true underlying motivations of his apparently malign activities. The game is typically very active, and Snowy's arrogance knows few if any bounds, so the thread will get annoying quickly. However, it is essential to humour the demands of Snowy's vast ego, to play the game.

And I know you've never understood how to play mafia but like, there's no need to advertise it so hard. Mafia is about figuring out what people are doing and why, and you've never shown that capacity in any meaningful sense.

[snowy801]

bozos read on damo evaporating for no reason should be noted if damo flips scum

It was not without reason, the reason was ghug and Squigs had him in their scum pool, so if my theory about ghug and Squigs is correct, I think that makes damo less likely scum. I still think damo is a reasonable scum possibility, and it is not impossible he is scum with ghug and/or Squigs.

Why do you think it's less likely that likely scum's scumreads includes other scum?

[bozotheclown]

##VOTE Squigs

Beside the foodcoats NK, having the same POE (containing what I suspect to be primarily town) as ghug is suspicious.

Wait a minute.

Squigs posted his list first, didn't he?

How is Squigs guilty on the basis that Ghug subsequently posted a similar list? Are you suggesting they chatted in the QT and agreed to post matching reads? That seems very unlikely Bozo.

I went into this already in a later post. It is not just that their lists are similar, it is the players on their lists.

[bozotheclown]

Good morning you lovely people, after yesterday brain dead day I am back and refreshed.


Let's take a look at the posts from yesterday that I missed:

All this distancing from damo but you won't vote him.

He townreads me for questionable reasons and you call it distancing?

I'd like today to be between three of snowy/you/Jamie/bona/damo/celaph, and I'm content focusing on whichever of those are getting less attention for the time being.

HI G hug! You're one of the few people that scum reads Jamiet so far in this game. Any reason why you feel like he's scummy this game? Much appreciated it.

He townreads me for questionable reasons and you call it distancing?

I'd like today to be between three of snowy/you/Jamie/bona/damo/celaph, and I'm content focusing on whichever of those are getting less attention for the time being.

That is a lot of players you are willing to get rid of today. Also, your list is very similar to Squigs (maybe suspiciously so):

I don't think I've made a reads list yet, so here ya go:

Towncore
Squigs
DL

Lean town for now (in order)
Ghug
Sabi
Jamie
Darg

POE (scummier further down you get)
celaph
damo666
bozotheclown
Bonatogether
snowy801

HI bozo! What was the point of this post? What were you trying to prove by saying they have similar scum reads. Most people in this game have similar ish scum reads with at least one other person in this game. Does this mean they are all scum?

Also Squigs posted their list first and doesn't include Jamiet while G hug does.

None of this alignment related.

vote dl

Why doesn't anyone scum read ghug

You know that's a bad sign right, everyone scum reads ghug when he's town

##vote DeathLlama

HI snowy! You keep asking people why they don't scum read G hug but haven't explained this read so that we can also see it too. Once again asking you expand on this.

What are the game examples of everyone town/nul reading G hug when it turned out he was scum? Is this an actual phenomenon.

If you sus G hug so much why did you vote for death Llama because Bona asked you to?

Also you have yet to explain the death Llama thing. Like G hug if you aren't going to explain it then don't get upset if people don't join in.

Much appreciated, need to go back to catching up to stuff directed towards me.

I addressed your questions in posts after the one you responded to.

[bozotheclown]

What do you think are some other indication that Squigs is scum?

Have you read the reason I have given so far?

All I recall is foodcoats, which is a flimsy premise at best

Then the answer to your question is already available to you.

[bozotheclown]

bozos read on damo evaporating for no reason should be noted if damo flips scum

It was not without reason, the reason was ghug and Squigs had him in their scum pool, so if my theory about ghug and Squigs is correct, I think that makes damo less likely scum. I still think damo is a reasonable scum possibility, and it is not impossible he is scum with ghug and/or Squigs.

Why do you think it's less likely that likely scum's scumreads includes other scum?

My theory is that ghug and Squigs are both mafia and that they are trying to get mis-kills in their scum pool. They could throw another scum in the pool for bussing, but if my theory is correct, the odds of damo being the mafia being bussed goes down.

[snowy801]

Have you read the reason I have given so far?

All I recall is foodcoats, which is a flimsy premise at best

Then the answer to your question is already available to you.

Would you reject the premise that though that may have been the full breadth of reasons why you originally scum read him, if Squigs is in fact scum there are likely to be more indications that he is?

If not, have you considered the remainder of his not inconsiderable actions? What does that exploration say to you, if so?

I just think your logic is a bit one dimensional

[bozotheclown]

All I recall is foodcoats, which is a flimsy premise at best

Then the answer to your question is already available to you.

Would you reject the premise that though that may have been the full breadth of reasons why you originally scum read him, if Squigs is in fact scum there are likely to be more indications that he is?

If not, have you considered the remainder of his not inconsiderable actions? What does that exploration say to you, if so?

I just think your logic is a bit one dimensional

I meant I have already given other reasons that you are not mentioning.

[snowy801]

Anyway enough of that.

Snowy: Can you give us a more detailed explanation of your thought process in the last hour or so at EoD1, please? We know you have a quite enormous intellect (since you keep telling us!) so it should be easy for you to explain this.

From my perspective it genuinely appears that you've told us:

1) You didn't scumread Bo_Sox.
2) You had at least a weak scumread on Bona and really wanted to see a wagon on him.

And yet:

i) You encouraged a wagon on Bo_Sox to form, and you voted for him.
ii) You didn't return to the Bona wagon even when it looked quite likely to go over.

Your previous explanation on this was, I'm afraid, quite light on detail, so I'd be grateful if you could expand on exactly what you were thinking.

It's rare that we get to enjoy the presence of a certified genius so thanks in advance for your enlightened words.

I did scum read bo_sox. I just wasn't entirely convinced by it but I thought the read held up on its own merit. I was especially clear on this matter, and that you consider your own enduring misunderstanding of a simple comment "fuck the b-line" that literally everyone else understood for what it meant and twist every thought around this matter is not one I particularly feel compelled to dispel

I had a stronger scum read of bona at the time, but given that my strongest scum read of the day was ghug and I was growing leery of DL at the moment

Actually let's break down the actual way EoD1 went down to me. Originally I was going to coast until the end and just coast on the back of what I thought to be a likely scum target that someone else build (this was bona). However, as EoD1 approached, the vast majority (perhaps all but bona, iirc it was celaph, worcej, myself and Squigs which I saw as a phenomenal failure of scum hunting) of the votes were on who I figured was town and nobody was making money moves. So I thought to myself that I might as well get the ghug wagon going and see where that takes me.

Quick shorthand why I town read those people
worcej - he seemed happy
celaph - he was making an effort
squigs - also trying

Apparently, no where. But then we had both ghug and DL clamoring for a bo wagon and so I thought I'd like to see where that goes too

I guess this is a good stopping point so I'll talk about those two and who I think the likely remainder lies [soon TM]

[snowy801]

Then the answer to your question is already available to you.

Would you reject the premise that though that may have been the full breadth of reasons why you originally scum read him, if Squigs is in fact scum there are likely to be more indications that he is?

If not, have you considered the remainder of his not inconsiderable actions? What does that exploration say to you, if so?

I just think your logic is a bit one dimensional

I meant I have already given other reasons that you are not mentioning.

It was not apparent in my quick ISO. Did you only mention them in D1? Because I didn't check there

[ghug]

Snowy's long post doesn't convince me 1 iota.

Glad to see Bozo posting more. I'm not convinced though that ghug and Squigs having similar reads is AI.

Where is celaph.

I have had an idea regarding EOD1. Have to work on it though. More later.

Didn't work out. Shame.

What was it?

[ghug]

Good morning you lovely people, after yesterday brain dead day I am back and refreshed.


Let's take a look at the posts from yesterday that I missed:

All this distancing from damo but you won't vote him.

He townreads me for questionable reasons and you call it distancing?

I'd like today to be between three of snowy/you/Jamie/bona/damo/celaph, and I'm content focusing on whichever of those are getting less attention for the time being.

HI G hug! You're one of the few people that scum reads Jamiet so far in this game. Any reason why you feel like he's scummy this game? Much appreciated it.

He's one of the people in the PoE pool.

[bozotheclown]

do people (bozo, damo) usually pay attention to the nk this much?

In a game with no PRs, what criteria do you think the mafia are likely to use to pick a NK?

[ghug]

My one regret is that I genuinely planned on doing all this this morning and it is extremely unfortunate that so many unexpected potholes absolutely obliterated my schedule today

Also side note ghug's so full of shit saying apologetic lurker snowy is scum because a) entirely false and b) I'm not even lurking

He clearly just wants to wipe his nose without his hands

"omg guys my grandma is dead"

Few more long-ass posts and I'm drop it, but the fact is that you came out of your "I was trying to be scummy" and into "I can't post sorry guys". I expected the former but not the latter.

You know it actively pisses me off that you're acting like I'm in need of saving and you're putting yourself in the judgment seat so you can later Nero thumbs up or down on me

Yeah I'm allowed to try to figure out your alignment, bub.

[Squigs44]

I do not think ghug would deliberately make a similar post as Squigs if they are both mafia, but it could be the inadvertent result of plans they made N1.

Look at the players they scum read: you, me, snowy, damo, and celaph (ghug threw in Jamie as well). You ended D1 voting for snowy, I ended D1 voting for celaph, celaph was voting for you until switching to bo_sox in the last minute, damo ended D1 voting for you, snowy voted for you and damo during D1 (among others), and Jamie ended D1 voting for snowy. It would not be unreasonable for them to think they could keep the votes within this group and protect themselves. Also, they are both ignoring the bussing that would be required for all the mafia to come from this group.

You can look at this another way. You, me, snowy, celaph, and Squigs were all lead wagons or tied for lead wagon at some point in the last 10 hours of D1, so the scum suspects ghug and Squigs independently came up with were primarily those that had the most suspicion on them coming into D2 (excluding Squigs).

Or maybe those 5 people we listed were lead wagons day 1 because they have done the most scummy things, which would also explain why they are in our POEs.

I've laid out cases on Bona and Celaph before they were major wagons. I laid out a case on Snowy that shows my progression in thought on him. You and damo I've been less organized, but I have given thoughts about where I stand with you throughout day 1 and today. If you think my reads are forced, disgenuine, or contradictory, please bring that up.

As far as bussing goes, I already laid out reasoning for how Snowy/damo would make a lot of sense as a scumpair. Snowy and Bona could also work with some bussing. You could be scum with damo, snowy, or Bona. Really the only pieces that don't fit nicely are a Bona/damo pair OR Celaph with yourself and probably Bona.

Bonatogether was a wagon when you first posted and voted for him, and I did not like the case you made on him later. Town players generally do not like getting voted either.

I reviewed you past scum games, and you did better than you represented. In some cases you were the last scum remaining, and in others you were mechanically caught.

If I assume you are town and that you believe the town did a good job identifying the scum D1 (perhaps with help by scum bussing) so that all the scum were wagons at some point D1, do you think it is possible ghug could be mafia, restricting his list of players he wants to see as wagons to those that could be easy to vote off?

When I voted for Bona he only had joke votes for him and I think i was the first to actually provide a case. And obviously we disagree on our Bona reads, but characterizing my case on him as me voting him because he didn't like getting voted is strawmannig my case.

My scum games were M39 - died EoD1, M41 - died EoD2, M43 - died EoD3. We resigned that game, I wasn't the last scum alive. And I was mechanically caught by investigative roles who scumread me, so yes, I've been scumread every time.

Is it possible ghug is mafia? Yes. Is it possible that there is scum outside of my PoE and that my reads will evolve as we get more info? Yes.
The purpose of the PoE is to focus in on those most likely to be scum, not a 100% this is it list. For right now, though, I think it's more likely ghug is just town who is reading the same game as me and coming to similar conclusions as me.

[bozotheclown]

Would you reject the premise that though that may have been the full breadth of reasons why you originally scum read him, if Squigs is in fact scum there are likely to be more indications that he is?

If not, have you considered the remainder of his not inconsiderable actions? What does that exploration say to you, if so?

I just think your logic is a bit one dimensional

I meant I have already given other reasons that you are not mentioning.

It was not apparent in my quick ISO. Did you only mention them in D1? Because I didn't check there

Here is a summary:
1. foodcoats was the NK
2. the reasons foodcoats scum read Squigs
3. the reasons bo_sox scum read Squigs
4. Squigs POE containing all the D1 wagons
5. Squigs and ghug having the same POE containing all D1 wagons

[BesharamSabi]

@Sabi - Since you like weird questions so much, here's one for you (and anyone is free to answer):

DL asked a question, which was answered differently by 3 people:

jamiet - since you think snowy was mafia, do you think he was actively protected yesterday / who would've most likely done that?

The 3 answers were given by myself, damo, and Jamie shortly after the question was put forward. Why do you think we each answered differently, and what do we learn from.this?

HI thank you for pointing this out for me. OK let me bring up all three answers, analyze them and then have my conclusion.

jamiet - since you think snowy was mafia, do you think he was actively protected yesterday / who would've most likely done that?

Celaph/Bona/Snowy would be a spicy scumteam given the EoD1

More realistically I think if snowy is scum, maybe damo is scum also based on EoD, but really I don't think snowy really needed saving. Damo questioned Jamie's vote on snowy being the most sus if snowy is scum

I do think celaph/bona/snowy would be an amusing scum team. I did find it odd that damo questioned jamiet vote in snowy even tho he himself also voted for snowy.

jamiet - since you think snowy was mafia, do you think he was actively protected yesterday / who would've most likely done that?

The most likely culprit would appear to be Worcegorygel

Jamiet why do you think worcejic/dargo is the most likely culprit compared to damo who was also on snowy?

^ open question for the snowy wagon ig

You!

Damo why do you think death Llama is it?

---

Anyway I do find it interesting that all three gave wildly different answers for this question and how they interpreted it.

I do find jamiet answer the most interesting of the three. I wonder why he jumped to that conclusion and didn't even consider damo or even you. It makes sense why damo wouldn't talk about himself.