M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[BunnyGo]

My head!
<snip>
##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

For people (like me) who didn't know you can see who is upvoting posts, hover with your mouse over the plus symbol and you'll see Jamie liked this post (obviously since he was pushing a theory that HR is scum).

I don't know how to tell on mobile, can anyone tell me?

[Jamiet99uk]

I have re-read Hellenic Riot, who has made 25 posts, just in case I'm missing something that makes him look town:

The first 11 posts are all about mechanics and rules.

On page 47 he answered Bozo's survey, noting that he would recruit, and select both trackers, to prevent Mafia being investigated.

Also on p.47, he said he thought Teacon was a "perpetual lurker" (which is an odd comment as I don't think it's what Teacon is like at all).

On p.48 he joined with Bozo in pointless speculation about why Durga subbed out.

He failed to vote D1; on P.61 he did at least apologise for that.

This remark interests me:

So reading EoD, I'm interested to know why @ghug was so keen to pull the votes off of Flum post-claim there. There seems to be an excellent reason why Flum's death was actually great (as there is now a very strong chance we have a second Spirit thanks to the Backup), so Flum's claim probably should have *increased* the reasons to vote him.

Flum's role-claim came about 90 seconds before the deadline. There was very little chance that enough people would move their votes, in that tiny window of time, to alter the outcome of the D1 voting at such a late moment. HR's comment appears oblivious to this - but he must have understood when the deadline was when making this comment, as he'd just apologised for missing it. I'm not sure what to make of this but it's a bit odd.

HR spent the rest of the night (page 66) talking in unnecessarily great detail about his domestic routine and whether or not he would have been co-ordinating his posts with scum Bo_Sox. This was in response to a query by Bozo but HR did appear to go into a lot of detail, which is odd given how little he has otherwise posted.

P.74 he repeats his suggestion that scum would have recruited, and not taken the Double Voter, implying he strongly thinks that's what scum did.

Then he votes for Kgray without explanation - and from there, I've already covered all of his despicable actions.

Nothing here changes my view. HR is scum. Please elect him as the next Overseer of Vault 11.

[BunnyGo]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

Because you nailed him last game?

[Jamiet99uk]

My head!
<snip>
##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

For people (like me) who didn't know you can see who is upvoting posts, hover with your mouse over the plus symbol and you'll see Jamie liked this post (obviously since he was pushing a theory that HR is scum).

I don't know how to tell on mobile, can anyone tell me?

I think tooltips don't work on mobile, so you probably need to go into the poster's profile and look at their +1 list there.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

Because you nailed him last game?

Nice. This is a really nice observation.

"I caught this person last time because they were exhibiting behaviour X. They are not exhibiting behaviour X this time, so they must not be scum this time" - this argument (which is the argument Rdrivera is making) assumes people do not change their behaviour in response to results.

[BunnyGo]

<snip>

Just to make clear. Damo voted Teacon because he wrote Vecna instead of Flum. This is a really bad reason to vote him and put Damo in my maybe scum list (finding a reason to jump in a relevant wagon is ascum tactic).

Yes, and to be clear that is all I've seen so far as I catch up. I sympathized because I think of them together in my mind too. It's a bad reason for teacon to be a lead wagon. There are better reasons, but he's not my leading candidate.

I need to reread Seth again after Vecna's spirited defense. And I need to read HR because of Jamie's argument. Need to read Jamie because of Flum.

I don't think I'll have time for all that, but the kids went to their grandparents for 2 hours so I have some time.

[kgray]

It is difficult to argue against ghug's gut feeling, and vecna's 'seems like.' To me, I am obvtown. Unlikely to be on today. I am happiest, still, with a teacon kill. But Jamie's flip reveals more. I also note, regarding Jamie, that he has gone silentish.

I really dislike "info" as a reason for a vote

[Jamiet99uk]

It is difficult to argue against ghug's gut feeling, and vecna's 'seems like.' To me, I am obvtown. Unlikely to be on today. I am happiest, still, with a teacon kill. But Jamie's flip reveals more. I also note, regarding Jamie, that he has gone silentish.

Even I have to sleep occasionally.

I do not like the way Darg is throwing shade on me for random stuff unrelated to the game, and pushing me as an "info" flip. He says he is "happiest" with a Teacon kill, yet he moved his vote when Teacon was the top wagon, onto me.

@Dargorygel: If Teacon is your preferred wagon and your top scumread, why did you move off his wagon when it was in the lead??

Very suspect behaviour from Darg today.

[Jamiet99uk]

Saying someone is your preferred wagon while also acting to reduce their wagon and push an alternative wagon, is very scummy.

[kgray]

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

But if we fix just on their not answering the simple question, "Why kgray," what's preventing them from telling us. If there is something they spotted that confirms kgray is mafia, don't they owe it to town to put it out there?

Yes, he is being obnoxious and not helpful. But the point is motivation. Why scum HR, that is really great at faking reads, would avoid a simple question and attract all this attention?

Besides the obvious "HR is town because he would never do this as scum" argument, I mostly agree with you. But also why would town!HR not push a case on his scumread?

[BunnyGo]

<snip>
HEY @BUNNY WHERE ARE YOU

Back...catching up again. Will respond to questions as I see them. Won't go the full vecna posting as I catch up.

[BunnyGo]

Why would an outed mafia fakeclaim fruit vendor.

Teacon, I really don't think you're scum, but you need to stop advocating pro-scum policy.

maf would have to fake that they were visiting someone for the sake of the role.

"I'm the fruit vendor, that's why I was there, I had no idea he'd be dead when I got there."

So you're saying you expect mafia to have taken the fruit vendor role? I don't understand why they'd fake claim it...actual fruit vendor would make a CC in a heartbeat.

[kgray]

My head!
<snip>
##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

For people (like me) who didn't know you can see who is upvoting posts, hover with your mouse over the plus symbol and you'll see Jamie liked this post (obviously since he was pushing a theory that HR is scum).

I don't know how to tell on mobile, can anyone tell me?

I don't think you can tell who upvoted posts on mobile.

[BunnyGo]

Can anyone summarize the case on darg for me? I see several people saying stuff, but nobody is voting him.

[BunnyGo]

<circumcised for Jamie>
I don't know how to tell on mobile, can anyone tell me?

I don't think you can tell who upvoted posts on mobile.

Hmm...that's unfortunate since I do lots of my reading on mobile.

[BunnyGo]

<unneeded redacted>

Hey, if town had listened to me last game and had the Road runner claim, we probably wouldn't have lost so bad. my ideas arent ALWAYS crazy.

TBH I'd probably be throwing all the Fruit at Jamie just to annoy him.

I did claim. It was dumb.

[BunnyGo]

ill repeat

whohooo booooze

I'll bite: what's your drink?

[Hamilton Brian]

I have to get some Vecna eyes so I can read things the way they read them.

Couple of posts from kgray, "...again one of her minor towntells."

Bunny says, "Now this feels forced..." Vecna with the "townpost from bunny."

That being said, I am going to go down your journey with you Vecna; might be a learning opportunity for me.

[Vecna]

Although, if you want to go and check a scumchat to see how Bo & I behave when we're scum together with a daychat, you only have to look at... M57? M58? Whichever one we steamrollered everyone in, whilst doing the absolute bare minimum of co-ordination in there.

Also, this type of recent experience would quite likely result in the wish for a repeat, and maybe recruiting Bo.

Confbiasing alert!

Why do you townread ghug? What has he done that's townie enough to make up for the bad reasons he's given for scumreading you?

First of all, just because someone has an inaccurate or poorly-argued scumread on me, that doesn't make them scum, it makes them wrong. Townies are often wrong.

Second of all, I think that town Ghug is more likely to tunnel someone based on loose instinct, and I am not sure that scum Ghug would be acting this way.

I did have a stronger reason which temporarily made me almost completely certain, but I've established I can't be sure of that - and I'm not able to elaborate on that point right now. But, my gut is still telling me Ghug is town. I could be wrong...

And yet this post seems more of the forced and/or scripted variety. So ignore me.

At least at the start of this day he appears to be genuinely trying to sort jamite

Teacon also didn't respond to my polite question. He came on and responded to bo, perhaps because bo asked more aggressively? hmmm... at any rate... This is sort of the second time teacon avoided my question, which while not the most profound question, (like "why was Serenity cancelled?") was important enough for me to ask again.

The Firefly series was cancelled... because the world is broken, as humanity is unjust, having fallen into original sin. Or because it ran on Syfy against Friends, which is really just evidence of the previous statement. Does that seem right to you?

I didn't answer your question because I was on the can and only had time for one reply before dinner+bedtime with kids.

....ill be in my bunk

No, I meant *for* EOD. He left about an hour before EOD to answer emails(?), and that reminded me of something he said in the mini game I played with him when he was scum, where he seemed to be unnecessarily explaining his absence at EOD by saying he took a call or something. I thought his calmness was odd considering he was a leading wagon and he had been consistently scumreading Flum, but he wasn't really trying to convince people to vote Flum even when it would save himself.

When he was town and on the block D1 in M1015 I remember him actively attacking the people voting for him, pushing cases, and telling people to vote for counterwagons - just fighting harder in general. So when he came back and told people to vote Flum I thought that seemed more in line with what I saw from town!Jamie.

But I don't know anymore. I've just looked back through that D1 EOD from M1015 and he was a lot more antagonistic and aggressive than he was here.

Jamie overexplained his EOD absences as a GM. I don't know if he is scum, but if he is I don't think that is evidence of it.

Are you implying that Jamie is mellow in this game? I don't know of any scum appearance in which he was decidedly mellow. I don't remember which game it was, but in the last game I recall in which he was scum and I was playing, he was pointed and aggressive in basically everything he did, startlingly so. Though he got caught for it, so maybe he has changed since.

Random question - what do you make of Maniac's move to Flum?

I think he's been pretty mellow, yes. Do you not?

I very distinctly remember thinking that scum!Jamie in M1010 (which you were also in) was less aggressive than in his town games. He only got caught because Rivera had a guilty scan on him - and Rivera basically had to out himself as the cop to get Jamie daykilled.

That's the only time I've seen scum!Jamie, and ghug has already said he thinks my meta opinion of Jamie is wrong. If you also think this then I'll try to ignore meta for my read of him.

I am not sure what to make of Maniac's move to Flum. He said he didn't have time to catch up and didn't want to vote Jamie for unexplained reasons. I'd like to know what those were, since he originally said he didn't think Jamie was on his team (granted, that was really early in the game). And on the surface I don't like the statement that he'd prefer ghug over Flum because it could be scum trying to distance from a town flip, but he did say earlier that ghug was becoming his top scum read so I don't think that part is bothering me too much.

Contrary to earlier statements, Kgray has been very un-present so far this game. Her walls dont feel like theyre solving, but more just trying to convince us she's town.

there were exactly 2 minor townpings. The absence of something more meaningfull however, and her general tone and inquisitiveness appearing different than the last 2 games.....makes me feel I should hard-revoke the earlier townread.

Teacon's last messages remembered me of that game he and Xorxes fight all over the game and both were town. I don't want to go this way.

I will change to
##vote Seth - He is coasting.

Another opinion that I might have to change on. Rdrivera has felt very absent so far. No stick-out opinions that I remember. No hard or spicy takes. Just a bit of talking about his role and the Flum/Jamiet stuff.

It's worse than that, Dargorygel. HR actually responded to a post from Bamilton, asking him to explain his Kgray vote, and he implicitly refused to do so.

That is pretty blatant for HR to be scum, though, right? Unless he is being TStbS.

Nevertheless, I'd really like to hear his reasons. Really.

I don't think this is scummy from HR. And I understand his concerns with Kgray, I am not feeling the obvtown vibes she usually gave when she is town. Plus, she is my top choice for a recruit....

Well, at least 1 sensible thing

Welcome back, Jamie...

Why chaqa? I was just wondering where to move my vote off from teacon, and was thinking about chaqa.

It's a small thing... but I keep thinking about his notebook. Still no notes. And i find that stated intentions unfulfilled CAN be a scumtell.

Chaqa is often useless in the first phase, and this D1 he even stated his intention to do nothing for the first 24 hours, which you may remember I argued with him about. He then posted once last night, which was no more than a threat to vote for me today.

So I say bring it on, Chaqa. I want to see him participate today. If I'm his top scumread I want him to push me. If he thinks Flum's flip confirms that I'm scum, as he implied, I want to know why.

What I see, based on D1, (especially but not exclusively EoD1) and N1 is a Chaqa who will be quite happy to sit back, let Ghug or someone else push a wagon on me, and then join it. I'm not going to settle for that. I want Chaqa to put in some work.

I agree with this. tbh I never expected Chaqa would actually keep a notebook, but his play here is more than just lazy. All he's done is talk about mechanics and stated that he didn't care about the first 24 hours but still hasn't really contributed since. And where he has given reads looks really bad. He was being so hedgy with his Jamie scumread and if Jamie is town then it really looks like Chaqa was setting him up for the next miskill by saying either Jamie or Flum had to be scum, and using Flum's flip to lock in a scumread on Jamie.

##vote Chaqa

Prime example. No process. Just the feeling that Chaqa might be a possible vote, so the reasoning just suddenly is written down.

yeah that was a derp moment. I meant fluminator.

Any idea how it happened?

It had been a long day, I just got finished putting my kids to bed, and I had sat down to drink bourbon and play mafia. idk. Vecna's name is cooler?

I do approve that alcohol brings out my name

---------------------------

Note to self: stopped catchup at p83. Too much reading makes the brain go fuzzy

[Vecna]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

Yeah, the problem is.....HR mightve just seen how Durga did it last game and hope he also gets a pass for the first 2 days.

I dno. Theres just nothing to work with. Lurking is such a lame-ass thing to do when used as a strategy.