M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[teacon7]

As bozo's spokesperson, I suggest you look at your question to find your answer.

That's something about Durga. I meant something about Bunny actual play itself.

[Hamilton Brian]

I think it's worth taking a look at the progression of sentiment about Flum, especially after they brought up mass-claiming.

The progression of the vote for Flum would also be worth a look, both at the start and at the end.

I think the overarching question I would ask the late joiners is, "Was your feeling about Flum so strong that it was worth hopping on a mostly-certain wagon? Why?"

I realize it's a heavy question and the responses can be veiled, but it's a start.

[ghug]

I think it's worth taking a look at the progression of sentiment about Flum, especially after they brought up mass-claiming.

The progression of the vote for Flum would also be worth a look, both at the start and at the end.

I think the overarching question I would ask the late joiners is, "Was your feeling about Flum so strong that it was worth hopping on a mostly-certain wagon? Why?"

I realize it's a heavy question and the responses can be veiled, but it's a start.

I read this whole post thinking HR wrote it and was kinda confused.

[Hamilton Brian]

I think it's worth taking a look at the progression of sentiment about Flum, especially after they brought up mass-claiming.

The progression of the vote for Flum would also be worth a look, both at the start and at the end.

I think the overarching question I would ask the late joiners is, "Was your feeling about Flum so strong that it was worth hopping on a mostly-certain wagon? Why?"

I realize it's a heavy question and the responses can be veiled, but it's a start.

I read this whole post thinking HR wrote it and was kinda confused.

I'm not sure how to read that, or how to take it.

[Jamiet99uk]

So reading EoD, I'm interested to know why @ghug was so keen to pull the votes off of Flum post-claim there. There seems to be an excellent reason why Flum's death was actually great (as there is now a very strong chance we have a second Spirit thanks to the Backup), so Flum's claim probably should have *increased* the reasons to vote him.

Oh cool. That's a good observation. I had not thought of this.

[Jamiet99uk]

I think it's worth taking a look at the progression of sentiment about Flum, especially after they brought up mass-claiming.

The progression of the vote for Flum would also be worth a look, both at the start and at the end.

I think the overarching question I would ask the late joiners is, "Was your feeling about Flum so strong that it was worth hopping on a mostly-certain wagon? Why?"

I realize it's a heavy question and the responses can be veiled, but it's a start.

I read this whole post thinking HR wrote it and was kinda confused.

Hamilton Riot and Hellenic Brian. Yah.

[Hamilton Brian]

Is it a certainty that the Backup is town? I suppose me reading what you wrote and what's over at mafiascum there is the possibility that mafia could have chosen it.

Layers and layers to this game.

[bo_sox48]

I thought his claim made it very likely he was town, and I don't like daykilling town even if it's a relatively nondamaging role to kill.

Why were you adamantly defending him prior to his claim?

I think the more likely player saved among the main few was teacon, personally, and that would implicate kgray. I don't have an independent read of either of them, though.

You can't really think teacon needed saving there? Nobody was pushing him except me, he wasn't likely to be the kill at any point near EOD. Even rivera said he was tempted to move to Jamie and keep teacon for a later day (although he never did move his vote, which is a little suspicious).

Teacon was within one vote of the leaders when you jumped off of him. Why wouldn’t he be saved if his teammates were mafia and bussing him? It’s an obvious time to do it; delegitimizing his wagon relative to the others before someone has the chance to provide it any momentum is the best time to make that move.

Why did you jump off of teacon? You did not make it very clear.

Kind of tough to be some of the others on that wagon, too. Especially the late arrivals.

What does this mean?

I just thought it was interesting that someone really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie and/or Teacon.

What does this mean?

[Jamiet99uk]

Is it a certainty that the Backup is town? I suppose me reading what you wrote and what's over at mafiascum there is the possibility that mafia could have chosen it.

Layers and layers to this game.

The Mafia could have chosen any roles.

[kgray]

Seth jumping in late was something he did last game, so I'm not going to scumread him for it. Maniac is similar.

I don't like kgray's vote at all.

I don't think the wagon makes exceptional sense as a saving of Jamie. I tend to have more issues with the people who jumped on early than the people who jumped in late.

Since Jamie is incapable of reading between lines: yes I still scumread you, just not the push on you.

What don't you like about my vote?

Why are you more worried about people who jumped on early, and what does "early" mean in this context?

Your vote wasn't all that reasoned, and it lacked the conviction I recall from you last game. I got the sense that we think similarly before and now I'm not seeing it.

I'm more worried about the people early on the wagon in part because I didn't really find Seth and Maniac too odd in their actions, and in part because it doesn't really feel like a save given that Flum was already leading. Someone called teacon's vote irrelevant and I agree, though I don't like that he held it so.

On early votes, I specifically do find Jamie, damo, and darg suspicious. Jamie's vote I think makes sense in his meta as either alignment, but he's otherwise very scummy. damo's and darg's both feel opportunistic, and they both are otherwise feeling scummy. Bunny's vote wasn't necessarily opportunistic, as it was the first, and I think he's townie.

True, I didn't have a lot of conviction on Flum. I had a decently strong scumread on teacon but I thought his response to my questions near EOD was reasonable, and he wasn't going to be the kill regardless so I had to choose somebody else. Between the top two wagons, I thought Flum was more likely to be scum than Jamie.

I don't find Jamie that scummy, and I'm also not sure I agree with you about damo/darg. Darg's argument that Flum's wagon disappeared overnight doesn't make a lot of sense, considering my original vote for Flum was obviously not a serious vote, and yours didn't appear to be serious either. But I don't think it was opportunistic, because he was clearly stating he was trying to get the wagon going again, as opposed to jumping onto a wagon that was already rolling.

And Damo voting for Flum when Flum admitted his massclaim idea was bad is also pretty weak reasoning, and since Flum was a bigger wagon at the time I could see how it's more opportunistic than Darg's vote. But then again, town!damo did vote me last game for a typo, so it's not like I expect damo's votes to have super concrete reasoning.

[kgray]

I just thought it was interesting that someone really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie and/or Teacon.

Who are you talking about, specifically?

Getting me to be specific. Good. Specifically you, Seth, Maniac, and Teacon. I do need to go back and re-read your evolution of a vote from Flum (you were salty from the last game) to Teacon back to Flum.

Okay but what is interesting about people voting for Flum over Jamie? Teacon wasn't really an option at the time any of us voted Flum, especially after I moved off, so the choice was really down to those two. What about any of those votes makes you think someone "really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie"?

[ghug]

I thought his claim made it very likely he was town, and I don't like daykilling town even if it's a relatively nondamaging role to kill.

Why were you adamantly defending him prior to his claim?

I think the more likely player saved among the main few was teacon, personally, and that would implicate kgray. I don't have an independent read of either of them, though.

You can't really think teacon needed saving there? Nobody was pushing him except me, he wasn't likely to be the kill at any point near EOD. Even rivera said he was tempted to move to Jamie and keep teacon for a later day (although he never did move his vote, which is a little suspicious).

Teacon was within one vote of the leaders when you jumped off of him. Why wouldn’t he be saved if his teammates were mafia and bussing him? It’s an obvious time to do it; delegitimizing his wagon relative to the others before someone has the chance to provide it any momentum is the best time to make that move.

Why did you jump off of teacon? You did not make it very clear.

What does this mean?

I just thought it was interesting that someone really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie and/or Teacon.

What does this mean?

Cause I like Flum, find him valuable as town, and wanted to kill someone better.

[ghug]

I thought his claim made it very likely he was town, and I don't like daykilling town even if it's a relatively nondamaging role to kill.

Why were you adamantly defending him prior to his claim?

You can't really think teacon needed saving there? Nobody was pushing him except me, he wasn't likely to be the kill at any point near EOD. Even rivera said he was tempted to move to Jamie and keep teacon for a later day (although he never did move his vote, which is a little suspicious).

Teacon was within one vote of the leaders when you jumped off of him. Why wouldn’t he be saved if his teammates were mafia and bussing him? It’s an obvious time to do it; delegitimizing his wagon relative to the others before someone has the chance to provide it any momentum is the best time to make that move.

Why did you jump off of teacon? You did not make it very clear.

I just thought it was interesting that someone really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie and/or Teacon.

What does this mean?

Cause I like Flum, find him valuable as town, and wanted to kill someone better.

Plus if I was wrong it would have gotten me heavily scumread and I thrive in that.

[kgray]

Teacon was within one vote of the leaders when you jumped off of him. Why wouldn’t he be saved if his teammates were mafia and bussing him? It’s an obvious time to do it; delegitimizing his wagon relative to the others before someone has the chance to provide it any momentum is the best time to make that move.

Why did you jump off of teacon? You did not make it very clear.

Yes, but nobody was pushing him or seemed to be suspicious of him at that point except for me and Rivera, who were already on him. So even though he was close in vote count, it didn't seem like he was actually an option for the daykill.

So that was part of why I left, and the other part was because of his more detailed explanation of why he voted for Rivera. Prior to that I thought it was only because Rivera was the vanilla role, and teacon decided that he'd choose that role as scum so therefore scum chose that role. But then he gave more reasons for why he thought it made sense for it to be Rivera specifically. I don't think they're great reasons, but it made me much less certain that he was just targeting the role rather than the player.

[ghug]

Who are you talking about, specifically?

Getting me to be specific. Good. Specifically you, Seth, Maniac, and Teacon. I do need to go back and re-read your evolution of a vote from Flum (you were salty from the last game) to Teacon back to Flum.

Okay but what is interesting about people voting for Flum over Jamie? Teacon wasn't really an option at the time any of us voted Flum, especially after I moved off, so the choice was really down to those two. What about any of those votes makes you think someone "really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie"?

I don't think kgray says this if she's scum with Jamie.

[bo_sox48]

Why were you adamantly defending him prior to his claim?

Cause I like Flum, find him valuable as town, and wanted to kill someone better.

So like... nothing in here says "I think he's town" but okay. Assuming it was implied, why do you think he is town?

[bo_sox48]

Yes, but nobody was pushing him or seemed to be suspicious of him at that point except for me and Rivera, who were already on him. So even though he was close in vote count, it didn't seem like he was actually an option for the daykill.

So that was part of why I left, and the other part was because of his more detailed explanation of why he voted for Rivera. Prior to that I thought it was only because Rivera was the vanilla role, and teacon decided that he'd choose that role as scum so therefore scum chose that role. But then he gave more reasons for why he thought it made sense for it to be Rivera specifically. I don't think they're great reasons, but it made me much less certain that he was just targeting the role rather than the player.

That's fair context. What about Jamie drew you to him, other than the fact that he was the one dude left you didn't townread?

[bo_sox48]

Getting me to be specific. Good. Specifically you, Seth, Maniac, and Teacon. I do need to go back and re-read your evolution of a vote from Flum (you were salty from the last game) to Teacon back to Flum.

Okay but what is interesting about people voting for Flum over Jamie? Teacon wasn't really an option at the time any of us voted Flum, especially after I moved off, so the choice was really down to those two. What about any of those votes makes you think someone "really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie"?

I don't think kgray says this if she's scum with Jamie.

You think she doesn't think this or doesn't bother saying it?

[ghug]

Why were you adamantly defending him prior to his claim?

Cause I like Flum, find him valuable as town, and wanted to kill someone better.

So like... nothing in here says "I think he's town" but okay. Assuming it was implied, why do you think he is town?

I said repeatedly they I null read him. Read the thread.

[dargorygel]

@ghug
You wrote:
"On early votes, I specifically do find Jamie, damo, and darg suspicious. Jamie's vote I think makes sense in his meta as either alignment, but he's otherwise very scummy. damo's and darg's both feel opportunistic, and they both are otherwise feeling scummy."

I was not an early vote... but a mid vote. Or a 'second time around vote.' I think I explained pretty well why i voted for flum (and was wrong.) But I get that you think I was being opportunistic about something. (I do not know what, since when I was joining the wagon, it was very small.)

But what I would like to talk about with you is what I am 'feeling scummy.' Frankly, your persistence without reason is causing me to wonder about your other reads. Can you help me see what makes me scummy in your eyes?