Mafia Life After QuickTopic

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worcej
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#61 Post by worcej » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:40 pm

BesharamSabi wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:57 pm
Chaqa wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:38 pm
ghug wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:12 pm


I'm a big Discord fan in general, but it's definitely heavyweight for what we're doing. If someone doesn't want to create an account or download an app, their experience is significantly worse. It also sounds like your plan is to have a superserver with lots of role interactions, which means more work for the council, less GM autonomy, and another vector where someone can make a gamebreaking mistake.

Saying it's the only solution feels a little silly when another solution more similar to the status quo has been proposed.
i did some research into Xoyondo. Xoyondo's message boards are not the company's primary focus and I don't see them being around long-term reliably. They state in their FAQ that boards will be deleted after two years of inactivity, meaning it would require another manual archiving on a regular basis.

Our plan is not to have a super-server. If we go with Discord, we would create a server for each game based off of a Discord template. The template pre-loads channels, roles, etc. and would make new-game setup pretty quick. We would be able to set it up so no one can see who is in the Discord, I believe, except for the GMs.

Once a game ends, we would add an invite to that specific game Discord to a list of links in the main mafia Discord so people can look at the older games if they want.
A problem with this is people in the game can join the game specific server unless you are also keeping the invite link hidden.

Also let's say town pr has a separate chat. They can see who is scum are in the server.

Would it be easier to have it on the mafia discord instead?
I'll just speak for myself, but when I am GM'ing I'd create a Mafia chat Discord, a GT Discord, and then have town PRs utilize PM's for orders.

If town had PRs, like Masons or a Neighborhood watch, I'd make a discord or use PMs to handle it.
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#62 Post by Chaqa » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 pm

To repeat:

We have a discord template that would mean it's a very painless process.

We can hide the member list of the Discord so knowing who is in it isn't a concern.

And the Discord link would of course be private, why would we just post them in the thread or anything. It would be shared via role PM like the old Quicktopics were.
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BesharamSabi
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#63 Post by BesharamSabi » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:14 am

Chaqa wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 pm
To repeat:

We have a discord template that would mean it's a very painless process.

We can hide the member list of the Discord so knowing who is in it isn't a concern.

And the Discord link would of course be private, why would we just post them in the thread or anything. It would be shared via role PM like the old Quicktopics were.
Wait you can hide member list for discord? I know you can hide those who are offline but I have never seen to hide for everyone before?
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#64 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:18 am

BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:14 am
Chaqa wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 pm
To repeat:

We have a discord template that would mean it's a very painless process.

We can hide the member list of the Discord so knowing who is in it isn't a concern.

And the Discord link would of course be private, why would we just post them in the thread or anything. It would be shared via role PM like the old Quicktopics were.
Wait you can hide member list for discord? I know you can hide those who are offline but I have never seen to hide for everyone before?
Yeah, I’m not sure how to do it but I have seen it done with no extra bots or anything
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BesharamSabi
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#65 Post by BesharamSabi » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:57 am

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:18 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:14 am
Chaqa wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 pm
To repeat:

We have a discord template that would mean it's a very painless process.

We can hide the member list of the Discord so knowing who is in it isn't a concern.

And the Discord link would of course be private, why would we just post them in the thread or anything. It would be shared via role PM like the old Quicktopics were.
Wait you can hide member list for discord? I know you can hide those who are offline but I have never seen to hide for everyone before?
Yeah, I’m not sure how to do it but I have seen it done with no extra bots or anything
I looked it up. It isn't a feature. Only can hide offline members
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#66 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:22 am

BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:57 am
Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:18 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:14 am


Wait you can hide member list for discord? I know you can hide those who are offline but I have never seen to hide for everyone before?
Yeah, I’m not sure how to do it but I have seen it done with no extra bots or anything
I looked it up. It isn't a feature. Only can hide offline members
I'm literally in a Discord that has this going on
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BesharamSabi
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#67 Post by BesharamSabi » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:04 am

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:22 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:57 am
Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:18 am


Yeah, I’m not sure how to do it but I have seen it done with no extra bots or anything
I looked it up. It isn't a feature. Only can hide offline members
I'm literally in a Discord that has this going on
How? I Googled and all I see is people asking for this feature.
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#68 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:25 am

BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:04 am
Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:22 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:57 am


I looked it up. It isn't a feature. Only can hide offline members
I'm literally in a Discord that has this going on
How? I Googled and all I see is people asking for this feature.
I have no idea how they did it.

It's not super relevant anyway, since we're going to be making everyone join the Discord for the game, since it's where the God QT will be anyway, as well as a potential place for GM calls.
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bo_sox48
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#69 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:21 am

It sounds an awful lot like a decision has been made.
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#70 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:49 am

bo_sox48 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:21 am
It sounds an awful lot like a decision has been made.
Don’t let my zealousness fool you 🤷🏻‍♂️

Eden and Dargo and Vecna haven’t gotten on board yet
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ChrisVis
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#71 Post by ChrisVis » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:17 am

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:49 am
bo_sox48 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:21 am
It sounds an awful lot like a decision has been made.
Don’t let my zealousness fool you 🤷🏻‍♂️

Eden and Dargo and Vecna haven’t gotten on board yet
And some of us hope they don't get on board. Discord is intrusive. Maybe I need instruction on how to stop Discord from making noises when I'm trying to concentrate on something else.
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damo666
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#72 Post by damo666 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:13 am

Why don't we trial the next game on discord and anybody having issues report to a non playing Kouncil member?

My chief issue was navigation. I didn't and haven't got an account, merely clicked on an invite. Is it better if you have an account?
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#73 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm

damo666 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:13 am
Why don't we trial the next game on discord and anybody having issues report to a non playing Kouncil member?

My chief issue was navigation. I didn't and haven't got an account, merely clicked on an invite. Is it better if you have an account?
You literally have to have an account. I don’t know what you did, but it’s the equivalent of not having an account on WebDip
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#74 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:15 pm

ChrisVis wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:17 am
Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:49 am


Don’t let my zealousness fool you 🤷🏻‍♂️

Eden and Dargo and Vecna haven’t gotten on board yet
And some of us hope they don't get on board. Discord is intrusive. Maybe I need instruction on how to stop Discord from making noises when I'm trying to concentrate on something else.
Turn off Discord notification noises, either in your phone settings or in Disxord’s settings.
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damo666
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#75 Post by damo666 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:12 pm

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm
damo666 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:13 am
Why don't we trial the next game on discord and anybody having issues report to a non playing Kouncil member?

My chief issue was navigation. I didn't and haven't got an account, merely clicked on an invite. Is it better if you have an account?
You literally have to have an account. I don’t know what you did, but it’s the equivalent of not having an account on WebDip
All I did was click on an invite (from brainbomb). I don't remember creating an account but maybe I did. However ghug's post #56 implies you can experience discord without creating an account.

I assume when i used it was mafia related. Anyone remember which game?
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ghug
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#76 Post by ghug » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:36 pm

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:14 pm
damo666 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:13 am
Why don't we trial the next game on discord and anybody having issues report to a non playing Kouncil member?

My chief issue was navigation. I didn't and haven't got an account, merely clicked on an invite. Is it better if you have an account?
You literally have to have an account. I don’t know what you did, but it’s the equivalent of not having an account on WebDip
You can just enter a name and not do a full account setup, which then keeps you from logging in to your account anywhere else.
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President Eden
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#77 Post by President Eden » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:46 pm

An update:

The Council has greenlighted testing Discord for use as the successor service to QuickTopic in M71.

Unfortunately, as I am playing in M71, my ability to help troubleshoot issues for users is limited. However, Chaqa has volunteered to co-GM the game, and can help with technical issues.

We have not made a final decision on which service to use yet, and we will appreciate feedback from M71 players once the game has concluded. I want to get that out of the way upfront, because I’m going to spend a lot of time discussing our system for using Discord, and I don’t want to create the impression that it’s a done deal. Full disclosure, I do expect that the M71 player base will find Discord to be relatively low-stress and a worthy successor. But we don’t want to assume that without hearing from you. So we’re going to run M71 with Discord, and we want to hear how you felt about the experience after the game :-D

For those curious about how we’ve set it up, keep reading.

[…]

Discord has a server template feature, which allows you to create an arbitrarily large number of new servers (albeit one at a time) with identical roles and permissions. We’ve set up a server template for mafia games which will be played on webDiplomacy’s forum and need private communications.

When an individual player receives a role assignment which has private chat access (e.g., mafia), that individual user is assigned permissions to see their respective private chats. These permissions do not use Discord’s roles, so the general user base of the server cannot see who has which roles.

The hierarchy of permissions is as follows:

1. GMs - role given only to the GMs and non-participating Council members on an as-needed basis. Has administrator permissions and the ability to see a GM-only text channel to discuss in-game issues (e.g. mechanical breaks, discipline issues). Can see every other private channel in the server.

2. Dead/Spectator - role given only to dead players and spectators. Can see all in-game private channels and a special “god chat” visible only to their role and the GM role. Can only post in the god chat.

3. Individuals with private channel in-game roles - these individuals’ permissions are handled privately in Discord and not through a publicly-viewable role. Can see only the private channels corresponding to their in-game role. Can only post in private channels corresponding to their in-game role. Upon death, these permissions are removed, and the Dead/Spectator role is granted.

4. Individuals with no private channel in-game roles (default permissions upon joining) - these individuals cannot see any private chats (and thus cannot post in them). Upon death, granted the Dead/Spectator role.

This system provides a few advantages…

1. The server template system makes replicating servers very easy. Now that the essential infrastructure is set up, creating new servers for each game is as simple as clicking a link. From testing the service out and from having used QuickTopic many times in the past for this, I can say that both services should be reasonably easy to use as a GM, though Discord might require some more learning upfront.

2. Absent user error, the system is highly secure. The current permissions create the necessary privacy for each channel and greatly limit the ability of a user to accidentally see content they aren’t supposed to see. Creating individual servers for each game further prevents any accidental leaking of private game content by keeping server ownership clear - this was one of the main challenges in simply using the existing Discord server for the community. The system is not invincible; malicious actors theoretically could break into a user’s account and see private information, in the same way one might be able to break into a user’s webDiplomacy account and see their role PM. But barring user error, there isn’t a way to accidentally see the content of private channels. In fact, on this front Discord is arguably more secure than its predecessor QuickTopic, as it’s harder to accidentally add someone to a channel they aren’t supposed to see than it is to accidentally post a QT link.

3. Individual servers make bookkeeping pretty easy. We will maintain a pinned post with links to all finished mafia games’ Discord servers as a sort of archive. This was something we could have done with QuickTopic, the importance of which we didn’t really appreciate until it suddenly shut down :-D But is now something we can easily stay on top of, going away.

It does require the GMs to be somewhat acquainted with Discord’s user permissions, which is a drawback. GMs who aren’t comfortable with Discord, but find themselves using it anyway, will appreciate a co-GM who is familiar with the service. You also obviously have to join more servers this way… but it’s only one additional click on the player side, and once the game is over you can leave the server to reduce clutter on your end if that’s something that you need.

[…]

Apologies for how long this turned out to be, but I thought that a thorough explanation of how the system works would be useful.
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BesharamSabi
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#78 Post by BesharamSabi » Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:00 am

President Eden wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:46 pm
An update:

The Council has greenlighted testing Discord for use as the successor service to QuickTopic in M71.

Unfortunately, as I am playing in M71, my ability to help troubleshoot issues for users is limited. However, Chaqa has volunteered to co-GM the game, and can help with technical issues.

We have not made a final decision on which service to use yet, and we will appreciate feedback from M71 players once the game has concluded. I want to get that out of the way upfront, because I’m going to spend a lot of time discussing our system for using Discord, and I don’t want to create the impression that it’s a done deal. Full disclosure, I do expect that the M71 player base will find Discord to be relatively low-stress and a worthy successor. But we don’t want to assume that without hearing from you. So we’re going to run M71 with Discord, and we want to hear how you felt about the experience after the game :-D

For those curious about how we’ve set it up, keep reading.

[…]

Discord has a server template feature, which allows you to create an arbitrarily large number of new servers (albeit one at a time) with identical roles and permissions. We’ve set up a server template for mafia games which will be played on webDiplomacy’s forum and need private communications.

When an individual player receives a role assignment which has private chat access (e.g., mafia), that individual user is assigned permissions to see their respective private chats. These permissions do not use Discord’s roles, so the general user base of the server cannot see who has which roles.

The hierarchy of permissions is as follows:

1. GMs - role given only to the GMs and non-participating Council members on an as-needed basis. Has administrator permissions and the ability to see a GM-only text channel to discuss in-game issues (e.g. mechanical breaks, discipline issues). Can see every other private channel in the server.

2. Dead/Spectator - role given only to dead players and spectators. Can see all in-game private channels and a special “god chat” visible only to their role and the GM role. Can only post in the god chat.

3. Individuals with private channel in-game roles - these individuals’ permissions are handled privately in Discord and not through a publicly-viewable role. Can see only the private channels corresponding to their in-game role. Can only post in private channels corresponding to their in-game role. Upon death, these permissions are removed, and the Dead/Spectator role is granted.

4. Individuals with no private channel in-game roles (default permissions upon joining) - these individuals cannot see any private chats (and thus cannot post in them). Upon death, granted the Dead/Spectator role.

This system provides a few advantages…

1. The server template system makes replicating servers very easy. Now that the essential infrastructure is set up, creating new servers for each game is as simple as clicking a link. From testing the service out and from having used QuickTopic many times in the past for this, I can say that both services should be reasonably easy to use as a GM, though Discord might require some more learning upfront.

2. Absent user error, the system is highly secure. The current permissions create the necessary privacy for each channel and greatly limit the ability of a user to accidentally see content they aren’t supposed to see. Creating individual servers for each game further prevents any accidental leaking of private game content by keeping server ownership clear - this was one of the main challenges in simply using the existing Discord server for the community. The system is not invincible; malicious actors theoretically could break into a user’s account and see private information, in the same way one might be able to break into a user’s webDiplomacy account and see their role PM. But barring user error, there isn’t a way to accidentally see the content of private channels. In fact, on this front Discord is arguably more secure than its predecessor QuickTopic, as it’s harder to accidentally add someone to a channel they aren’t supposed to see than it is to accidentally post a QT link.

3. Individual servers make bookkeeping pretty easy. We will maintain a pinned post with links to all finished mafia games’ Discord servers as a sort of archive. This was something we could have done with QuickTopic, the importance of which we didn’t really appreciate until it suddenly shut down :-D But is now something we can easily stay on top of, going away.

It does require the GMs to be somewhat acquainted with Discord’s user permissions, which is a drawback. GMs who aren’t comfortable with Discord, but find themselves using it anyway, will appreciate a co-GM who is familiar with the service. You also obviously have to join more servers this way… but it’s only one additional click on the player side, and once the game is over you can leave the server to reduce clutter on your end if that’s something that you need.

[…]

Apologies for how long this turned out to be, but I thought that a thorough explanation of how the system works would be useful.
Tl;Dr
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Chaqa
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#79 Post by Chaqa » Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:04 am

BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:00 am
President Eden wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:46 pm
An update:
sabi sucks

[…]

Apologies for how long this turned out to be, but I thought that a thorough explanation of how the system works would be useful.
Tl;Dr
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BesharamSabi
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Re: Mafia Life After QuickTopic

#80 Post by BesharamSabi » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:03 am

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:04 am
BesharamSabi wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:00 am
President Eden wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:46 pm
An update:
sabi sucks

[…]

Apologies for how long this turned out to be, but I thought that a thorough explanation of how the system works would be useful.
Tl;Dr
OK edenqa
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