Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

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ghug
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#981 Post by ghug » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm

snowy801 wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).

Your approach to the claims was to act like the answer and the correct course of action were the most obvious things in the fucking world, which they were to experienced players, but it's your responsibility as the townie in a precarious situation to try to get Johnny to understand as much as it's his to be receptive to it.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#982 Post by dargorygel » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:17 pm

And trying again does not mean repeating more loudly.

I do see there was education effort. There was as much impatience as there was stubbornness.

If course, I was dead. So it's easy for me to say.
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President Eden
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#983 Post by President Eden » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:22 pm

Great post ghug and let me second this in particular:
ghug wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).
I wasn't watching carefully enough to pass judgment on how anyone acted from a character perspective, but this was my reaction when I heard about how the game went. It's my understanding that the claims came super late in the phase, which certainly makes it hard to explain the situation thoroughly, but Johnny never had any trouble following anything I was explaining to him when we played together in M68, and I suspect it was helpful for him too. You just gotta take the time to do it. It's easy to forget after however many gazillion games of mafia some of us have played just how hard it is to learn town play and how we might take somewhat complex knowledge for granted. I think it's a completely natural reaction for a newer player who's unsure between two late-phase claims to stick to voting his top suspect, even though that suspect is outside the claims. It's an incorrect play, as others have pointed out, but it's undoubtedly the natural impulse.

I don't want to be all preachy on y'all, so let's be clear, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody or putting any blame on people. But I think if we can collectively make better efforts to help newer players follow along and give constructive critique rather than blame when they miss things, we'll all be better off for it.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#984 Post by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:25 pm

ghug wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:22 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 pm
Johnny Big Horse wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:50 pm
But the other players seem to get all angry because I do not follow the crowd in thinking style or vote. I suppose if I voted Snowy in the end, they wouldn't have been disgusted with me, because then even if I was thinking wrongly, I was at least in tune with the rest of the group.
This is true, but you don't seem to grasp the point.

At that point it was factually known that either myself and rdrivera, or bozo were scum. You definitively declared that we were both town, and you declined to vote for either.

This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong on a level that nobody else in the game was, and you still reject this premise days after the game, when others have gone out of their way to explain it to you. You cannot liken your mistakes to be anywhere near equivalent to foodcoats' or HB's. This is like 10 billion to 1 ratio of scale of error.

So you must understand equally how frustrating it is trying to explain things inside the game to you.

Again, take some time to observe some games (it doesn't have to be here) and try again. Any mafia community will react the same, I wager, and any will be equally be willing to play with you again once you work out these issues.
The flip side here is that when a player misses a mechanical fact or a post with an important claim, it's on the experienced townies to make sure it's explained to them. We had an absent player who was probably town, and four non-town players trying to influence the vote, which meant it was always going to be razor tight. Johnny's proving himself to be stubborn—an unreasonable trait, but also one that probably puts him in the majority here—but he's also smart enough to understand when something is explained to him clearly, and it's not exactly like Vecna and damo were in a position to straight up lie to him (though I was).

Your approach to the claims was to act like the answer and the correct course of action were the most obvious things in the fucking world, which they were to experienced players, but it's your responsibility as the townie in a precarious situation to try to get Johnny to understand as much as it's his to be receptive to it.
I recognized this after the fact. It did not occur to me at the time that anyone could get this wrong - an obvious error in retrospect that I intend to correct, and why I asked HB and especially food how they perceived that day 2.

But that is that, and this is this.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#985 Post by snowy801 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:35 pm

To expand on the "that is that and this is this", I mean to say there was a reason I used a few pages back Johnny coming into day 3 thinking bozo was jester as the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable stubbornness. Chaqa kindly laid out the logic at the end of day 2, and while it's hard to know the meta/mechanic answers when you're new and people should of course go out of their way to help out with this, it's much easier to internally verify an answer already revealed to you. My only criticism is that this bar is a minimum requirement you need to clear in order to participate in mafia in good faith.

I will be the first to say as the last remaining active experienced town in that game (rd was rightfully dodging as PR and Chaqa already said he's checked out for all that I think he played fine, and the rest were dead) I had a responsibility to clear that d2 and failed it.

But again, that is that and this is this.
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#986 Post by damo666 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:09 am

Thanks worcej and my teammates.

The jester concept clearly unpopular and should be forgotten.

I like 24/24 and wasn't put out by no night chat but that may be because I was scum.

And JBH I hope you try again. You gotta play to learn and it's important to attract new players to stop the community becoming too 'samey' or 'cliquey'.

Some of us have a good insight into other people's play styles which is another reason to attract new players to keep us on our toes.

Bottom line, we should be welcoming to new players and perhaps a bit more forgiving in their first couple of games.

When I first played it was in a game for inexperienced players only (less than 5 games played from memory) and each player had a coach they could ask questions of and got critiqued by (I had Tom B).

Perhaps we repeat that and if so Johnny please sign up.
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Hamilton Brian
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#987 Post by Hamilton Brian » Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 pm

Different people certainly come in displaying different tendencies.

I think there are newcomers (celaph? aarodactyl...?) who come in that seem to have a decent mind for the game. Myself, I came in fairly clueless. Desire to play, not sure how it works.

I think I held on to the "newb" factor a little long, but not meaningfully. There would be questions I would ask out of the pure desire to know: what does this mean, what did I miss and why did I miss it, etc.

Responses would run a spectrum: helpful to outright snark/disrespect.

I think I try to approach this in much the same way I approach most things in life. Appreciative (I hope it's known or I convey it) for the helpful ones, and try to ignore the disparaging ones. Try not to take it personally, it's a game, it's not worth the emotional energy, etc. If I am getting bent out of shape because of what someone has responded to me with, over the computer, that's on me. But it is also incumbent to me to try to remain polite and respectful.

I believe that this is also a game of feedback. It requires listening and responding. And sometimes it requires a slowing-down and rephrasing so that there is clarity. Don't assume clarity is in the message. If something isn't clear, ask for that clarification.

Not sure what the point of this is; maybe just a small reflection on my year playing mafia here. A dose of humility. An expectation to listen and to clarify. A measure of respect, hopefully mutual, treating others how one wishes to be treated.

Hamilton Brian
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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#988 Post by Hamilton Brian » Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:15 pm

And I wondered about a training program; sort of like the School of War. Probably be a massive undertaking.

Still a fan of 24/24 silent night

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#989 Post by brainbomb » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pm

test

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#990 Post by brainbomb » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pm

bot test

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Re: Mini-Mafia Game - Interesting Facts Edition GAME THREAD [Hidden]

#991 Post by President Eden » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:27 pm

: bonk:

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