Re: Austria vs Bots
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:53 pm
Hmmmm.... Strange
https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/
https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4262
I made some progress, but not quite there yet.
...okay I was closer than I thought, apologies for the lack of formatting.
Very interesting. Italy-bot moved Venice-->Trieste or Venice-->Tyrolia almost 60% of the time (177/304). And it combined one of those with Rome-->Venice almost 50% of the time (149/304).DougJoe wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:14 am...okay I was closer than I thought, apologies for the lack of formatting.
The army at Venice move to Tyrolia.The army at Rome move to Venice.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 131
The army at Venice hold.The army at Rome move to Apulia.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 62
The army at Venice move to Piedmont.The army at Rome move to Venice.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 26
The army at Venice support hold to Trieste.The army at Rome move to Apulia.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 19
The army at Venice move to Trieste.The army at Rome move to Venice.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 18
The army at Venice move to Tyrolia.The army at Rome move to Apulia.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 16
The army at Venice hold.The army at Rome move to Naples.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 13
The army at Venice move to Trieste.The army at Rome move to Apulia.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 12
The army at Venice move to Piedmont.The army at Rome move to Venice.The
fleet at Naples move to Tyrrhenian Sea.: 5
The army at Venice move to Piedmont.The army at Rome move to Apulia.The fleet at Naples move to Ionian Sea.: 2
Interesting board... I like the idea of the convoy to Norway. You can certainly take Moscow and it doesn't really have any impact on the Italy/Turkey fracas. As to whether or not you go after Italy, that's a good question... my gut feel is to leave Italy alone for now (at least this year) but that's just me - I can't even say why, really.Trigfea63 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:08 amT-0128 has progressed another year. Here is the position for Spring 1908 diplomacy:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
As you can see, I'm making slow but steady progress against France. I took another SC from him in 1907. Italy and Turkey are still at war. Turkey made a big blunder in Fall '07, dislodging Italy from Aegean Sea with Smyrna open for retreat. The upshot is, Italy now has the lead with 9 SCs (including SMY), Turkey is 2nd with 8, and I am 3rd with 7.
I decided to build an army and convoy to NWY in the Spring. Maybe I can leverage the 2 armies to grab Moscow from the Sultan in due course. I might actually need Moscow for the solo, as Italy is showing no signs of wanting to let me take Tunis. In the western seas, France removed the Portugal fleet, which is awesome. I'll get Portugal this year for sure, possibly also Marseilles. Or, I could instead go for Tunis right now, while Italian fleets are occupied with Turkey and the Ionian. Italy might have the upper hand, with a 4-3 fleet advantage and sitting on a Turkish home center. A small attack on Italy might help to even out (and therefore prolong) the I/T war. As long as Italy doesn't turn against me, it might be a winning play. I'm not sure.
I'm thinking to not help Germany too much. I won't attack him right now, but I don't think I want him gaining French centers, either.
I welcome any advice.
Remember I am a relative newbie at this, so consider that. My advice is to go for Marseilles and Portugal this turn. Italy will think of you as a friend, as will Germany. With two builds you can either push further into the Med or stab Germany or whatever.I'm thinking to not help Germany too much. I won't attack him right now, but I don't think I want him gaining French centers, either.
I welcome any advice.
Yeah, very interesting. Here's an (automated) reformatting of the program's output, not sorted by counts (although I could easily do that in the code, too... hmm):
Here are my tentative Spring 1909 orders:Trigfea63 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:20 amI also have an update on T-0128. Here is the current map, after the Winter 1908 adjustments:
https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
1908 was a good year for humanity. Your English correspondent took 2 SCs from France. No other power gained or lost. Turkey and Italy are still at war, and traded SCs. That puts me tied for first with Italy at 9 SCs. Turkey is now third with 8. Germany has 6.
Germany finally, finally, finally managed to break into France, capturing Burgundy. (Woo-hoo!) Italy is heading west now for real, but he's too late. He's not strong enough to fight Turkey and me at the same time. I will take and hold Tunis. That will put me in a very similar position to Doug's in his Identify game. It will be a matter of slowly and gently prying centers from Germany, while preventing eastern powers from advancing to MUN-BER before I do. I also have a side gig going in the StP-Livonia area. It looks like I can capture Moscow this year, and possibly Sevastapol as well. It's unclear whether I can hold them, but maybe I can.
More to follow in a day or so on specific moves for 1909.
This seems reasonable. I was actually kind of surprised that Italy went hard west like that.Trigfea63 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:14 am
Here are my tentative Spring 1909 orders:
EDI-->NTH
LON-->BRE by convoy
POR-->SPA (sc) supported by MAO
MAR support-hold GoL
StP-->MOS supported by LVN
These orders imply simultaneous conflicts with Italy and Turkey. I'd prefer not to have to do that, although it seems manageable as long as Germany doesn't turn on me. I don't really have anywhere else to go without bumping into Germany. I need to get moving on Tunis before Italy locks it down, and Moscow is my best shot at a SC this year.
I thought about switching the Moscow attack to come from Livonia with StP support. But the Livonia army apparently caused Germany to convoy back to Prussia from Sweden. I like that army in Prussia a lot more than I like it in Sweden. So I think it's better to stay in Livonia for 1 more turn at least. I don't expect Germany will attack me and cut the support.
This is pretty interesting. Can you discuss more about your moves? See above. When playing France what if Germany moves to Burgundy? I normally play your second favorite MAO, GAS and BUR. If Germany moves to Burgundy you bounce and still get two builds. Does this make sense?Doug writes:
France:
F Bre->MAO. A Par->Gas. A Marseilles->Spain. : 27
F Bre->MAO. A Par->Gas. A Marseilles H. : 5
F Bre->MAO. A Par->Gas. A Marseilles->Bur. : 15
F Bre->MAO. A Par->Bur. A Marseilles S->Bur from Par. : 4
It seems that if you get an alliance with Italy you will nearly always win. You have shown statistically that Italy stabs you way more than is smart. But in my Austria game I think I have shown pretty conclusively that you will get an easy win when allied with Italy. (Again, maybe not 100% and also assuming you are playing stupid bots on webdiplomacy.com).Austria:
F Tri->Ven. A Vie->Gal. A Bud->Ser. : 2
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Gal. A Bud->Ser. : 22
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Tyo. A Bud->Ser. : 13
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Tri. A Bud->Ser. : 12
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Bud. A Bud->Ser. : 2
George, I think your idea to open strong to Serbia and Albania is a good one. I'm not sure I have the full data to agree or not that it is the best approach. I am curious what Doug thinks about it. I have also experimented with this alternative opening for Austria:georgefc3 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:21 amFor Austria (again)
It seems that if you get an alliance with Italy you will nearly always win. You have shown statistically that Italy stabs you way more than is smart. But in my Austria game I think I have shown pretty conclusively that you will get an easy win when allied with Italy. (Again, maybe not 100% and also assuming you are playing stupid bots on webdiplomacy.com).Austria:
F Tri->Ven. A Vie->Gal. A Bud->Ser. : 2
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Gal. A Bud->Ser. : 22
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Tyo. A Bud->Ser. : 13
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Tri. A Bud->Ser. : 12
F Tri->Albania. A Vie->Bud. A Bud->Ser. : 2
If you agree with this (and maybe you don't) then wouldn't it be best to hope and pray for an Italian alliance and do "normal" moves like in my game?
Thoughts and comments?
I am not sure that that this really solves the problem with Italy. I did some checking from earlier in the thread. Doug reports 18 games where Italy moves to Trieste. I think the big threat from Italy is moving to Tyrolia and Rome. If I remember correctly Italy opened this way in 137 or 147 games. In other words, it is way more common.Trig writes:
George, I think your idea to open strong to Serbia and Albania is a good one. I'm not sure I have the full data to agree or not that it is the best approach. I am curious what Doug thinks about it. I have also experimented with this alternative opening for Austria:
F Tri->Alb, A Vie->Gal, A Bud->Tri
You only get 1 build in 1901, but you protect yourself against Italy opening hostile, especially against Ven->Tri. So far, the two times I've used it, Italy did not attack, and I managed to win both games even with the slower start. Here is one example:
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel