Austria vs Bots

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georgefc3
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Austria vs Bots

#1 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:24 pm

Hello Fellow Diplomats

This thread is a commentary on an Austria vs Bot game. The idea is to solo and to get all y'all to read this thread and comment on it.

With that in mind this game will be played slowly. I will play maybe one season per day and then make comments on the state of play, strategy and tactics.

My hope is that other players, such as Doug will reciprocate by doing the same thing playing as England. I have struggled with England and would like to see a game played with the same sort of commentary as I am providing here for Austria.

For background my theory is that Austria is a pretty easy country to solo with. That is assuming of course that you are not stabbed by Italy in the early part of the game. I have played five games with Austria so far and Italy has been neutral or friendly in 60% of those games. Now if you are a statistician that is a very small sample set. I have seen lots of games where Italy opens like this

Ven - not Tyrolia or Trieste
Rom - Apulia
Naples - Ion

I haven't seen statistics in WebDiplomacy games. I am guessing that it anywhere from one third to two thirds of Italian games. If Italy opens with a Lepanto then my theory is that this should be any easy win for a human who is clever. I could be wrong but we will see how this goes.

I am flying with a net and we will see how it goes. For better or worse.

Just so you know - if Italy attacks me early I will vote "draw" and try again. I will report that here just so you all know what is going on.

Wish me luck!

I will wait to start the game to see if you guys have a response first.
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Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#2 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:00 pm

If you actually write this, I will follow it and make comments if I notice anything worth commenting on.
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georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#3 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:07 pm

Ok good...

Will you also be willing to play a game as England? I would like to see your strategy. If you do I will be rooting for you to solo.

;)

Doug likes to play to the channel and completely abandons Norway.
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georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#4 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:08 pm

If you want, I am also willing to give advice.
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georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#5 Post by georgefc3 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:24 pm

FYI... This is the plan. This is all based on the idea that Italy either is helping me with a Lepanto or not attacking me.

Normal moves...

Gal, Ser & Alb
Gal, Ser & Gre

Build army and fleet

Support into Galicia. Block Turkey in Aegean. Expect Italy to win Smyrna. Keep bouncing Italy in Aegean until he gets tired of it then move fleet Greece in and second fleet to Greece.

Against Russia. Take Galicia and then Rumania. Build another Army. Take Bulgaria, lose Rumania. Retake Rumania.

Once you are in Aegean take Con, Black, Ankara and Sevestapol.

Meanwhile Italy moves west and (hopefully) gains the MAO and Iberia. I move North, take StP. Germany is our friend and don't move close to Germany unless he is getting his butt beaten by France (pretty likely).

The goal is to gain St. Pete and hopefully Scandinavia before either England/France/Italy gets there first. St. Pete is pretty much required for the win.

Don't stab Italy unless we are stuck and need his centers to get to 18.
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DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#6 Post by DougJoe » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:09 pm

Sure, I'll follow along and do one as England as well:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429768

There are generally two openings I've played as England: Edi-NWG, Lon-NTH, Lvp-Edi or Edi-NTH, Lon-ENG, Lvp-Yor. Last game I did the latter, maybe this time I'll do the former. We'll see.
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Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#7 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:43 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:07 pm
Ok good...

Will you also be willing to play a game as England? I would like to see your strategy. If you do I will be rooting for you to solo.

;)

Doug likes to play to the channel and completely abandons Norway.
Sure, why not? I can't promise a victory. Along with my 3 wins as England I have 4 losses. I will play mine out to the end regardless of outcome.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#8 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:46 pm

Here is the link: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll aim to make one move per day, with commentary and analysis.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#9 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:55 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:24 pm
FYI... This is the plan. This is all based on the idea that Italy either is helping me with a Lepanto or not attacking me.

Normal moves...

Gal, Ser & Alb
Gal, Ser & Gre

Build army and fleet

Support into Galicia. Block Turkey in Aegean. Expect Italy to win Smyrna. Keep bouncing Italy in Aegean until he gets tired of it then move fleet Greece in and second fleet to Greece.

Against Russia. Take Galicia and then Rumania. Build another Army. Take Bulgaria, lose Rumania. Retake Rumania.

Once you are in Aegean take Con, Black, Ankara and Sevestapol.

Meanwhile Italy moves west and (hopefully) gains the MAO and Iberia. I move North, take StP. Germany is our friend and don't move close to Germany unless he is getting his butt beaten by France (pretty likely).

The goal is to gain St. Pete and hopefully Scandinavia before either England/France/Italy gets there first. St. Pete is pretty much required for the win.

Don't stab Italy unless we are stuck and need his centers to get to 18.
I already have a comment, on your pregame plan. It's very detailed! I never think things out this far ahead. I tend to play turn by turn, based on the current board state. Very interesting.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#10 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:04 am

Spring 1901. I'm going to open hard north. Last time I played England, I opened to the Channel and it didn't go so well. I'm also beginning to wonder whether there's value for England in antagonizing France in 1901 in a bot game. We shall see.

LON-NTH
EDI-NWG
LVP-EDI

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#11 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:09 am

I just realized, this thread is "Austria vs Bots" ... I'll start a separate thread for my England game.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#12 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:51 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:55 pm
georgefc3 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:24 pm
FYI... This is the plan. This is all based on the idea that Italy either is helping me with a Lepanto or not attacking me.

Normal moves...

Gal, Ser & Alb
Gal, Ser & Gre

Build army and fleet

Support into Galicia. Block Turkey in Aegean. Expect Italy to win Smyrna. Keep bouncing Italy in Aegean until he gets tired of it then move fleet Greece in and second fleet to Greece.

Against Russia. Take Galicia and then Rumania. Build another Army. Take Bulgaria, lose Rumania. Retake Rumania.

Once you are in Aegean take Con, Black, Ankara and Sevestapol.

Meanwhile Italy moves west and (hopefully) gains the MAO and Iberia. I move North, take StP. Germany is our friend and don't move close to Germany unless he is getting his butt beaten by France (pretty likely).

The goal is to gain St. Pete and hopefully Scandinavia before either England/France/Italy gets there first. St. Pete is pretty much required for the win.

Don't stab Italy unless we are stuck and need his centers to get to 18.
I already have a comment, on your pregame plan. It's very detailed! I never think things out this far ahead. I tend to play turn by turn, based on the current board state. Very interesting.
I think ahead, but not that specifically, especially in S1901. It's more abstract and more fluid. I know that there is value in "pick your 18 and figure out how to get them" but I would never presume, for example, that Austrian armies are going to make it all the way to Scandinavia (although it would certainly be nice if they did!)
It's too easy for StP to be blocked by a northern power. I also do think turn by turn and adjust things as needed. It's more of a "where can I go, where should I go" thought process.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily wait until the last minute to stab Italy. It depends on the whole of Europe in general.

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#13 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:51 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:09 am
I just realized, this thread is "Austria vs Bots" ... I'll start a separate thread for my England game.
...no reason they can't all be here?

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#14 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:55 am

Cool beans!

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#15 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:03 am

Ok I started my game. See here:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

It was an awesome start. I actually gained Galicia in the first turn. It looks like Italy is going for a Lepanto.

On a side note both England and Germany had normal openings.

My guess is that England will bounce France in Belgium. So France and Germany should start off with 5 centers each.

My plan is this:

A Gal H
F Alb - Gre
A Ser s F alb - Gre

I can't see a reason to go to either Warsaw or Rumania. What do you guys think?

I haven't made any moves, wanting to hear from you guys first.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#16 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:09 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:51 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:09 am
I just realized, this thread is "Austria vs Bots" ... I'll start a separate thread for my England game.
...no reason they can't all be here?
Yeah, maybe you're right. Three of these threads are probably unnecessary. George, is that OK if we all use this thread for our games?

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#17 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:16 am

DougJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:51 am
... I would never presume, for example, that Austrian armies are going to make it all the way to Scandinavia (although it would certainly be nice if they did!)
It's too easy for StP to be blocked by a northern power....

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily wait until the last minute to stab Italy. It depends on the whole of Europe in general.
I agree with this. Austria can sometimes snag StP, but often not. And even if you can snag it, it's usually temporary. StP literally can't be held from the south without a northern fleet. Your better bet for 18 is to eventually stab Italy, or push far into Germany.

Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#18 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:28 am

georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:03 am
Ok I started my game. See here:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

It was an awesome start. I actually gained Galicia in the first turn. It looks like Italy is going for a Lepanto.

On a side note both England and Germany had normal openings.

My guess is that England will bounce France in Belgium. So France and Germany should start off with 5 centers each.

My plan is this:

A Gal H
F Alb - Gre
A Ser s F alb - Gre

I can't see a reason to go to either Warsaw or Rumania. What do you guys think?

I haven't made any moves, wanting to hear from you guys first.
OK, so I agree with you, don't go for Warsaw or Rumania. Better not to antagonize Russia at this point. That said, you might consider other options for Galicia besides just holding. One idea could be support-hold the Russian army in Ukraine. Russia didn't move to Galicia, a small sign of friendship to Austria. A support-hold is one way to try to offer a small sign in return. On the other hand, Ukraine doesn't need your support, and it also might move back to cover Warsaw, so the support-hold won't be of much value. Another idea along the same lines, support-move Russia's fleet in Sevastapol moving to Rumania. It's not unreasonable to think Russia might make that move. And that Turkey might also move to Rumania. If that all turns out to be correct, your support would be the difference Russia needs to get the center. That could buy you a lot of goodwill from Russia in future turns. He might even support you moving into Bulgaria next turn. Sometimes the bots reciprocate in this way, sometimes they don't. (Kind of like human players. ;-) Also, a Russian *fleet* in Rumania in 1902 is good for Austria -- it can only attack Turkey, it can't attack you. And if Russia ends up doing something else, well, Galicia's failed support is no worse than holding.

georgefc3
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#19 Post by georgefc3 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:45 am

Thanks for the advice. I figured that Russia was in trouble as he moved his army north. I thought he might also cover Warsaw.

Here is the new game:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

I decided to support the fleet to Rumania. My concern here was that if I got three builds that the other players (bots) might get upset at me.

Germany bounced Russia in Denmark. Turkey took the North Sea. Turkey attempted to bounce Russia in Rumania. So the good news is that Russia gets a build, likely in Sevastopol. That should keep Turkey at bay for a little while.

My planned builds are:

F Trieste
A Budapest

Thoughts or concerns?

DougJoe
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#20 Post by DougJoe » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:42 pm

georgefc3 wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:45 am
Thanks for the advice. I figured that Russia was in trouble as he moved his army north. I thought he might also cover Warsaw.

Here is the new game:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=429820

I decided to support the fleet to Rumania. My concern here was that if I got three builds that the other players (bots) might get upset at me.

Germany bounced Russia in Denmark. Turkey took the North Sea. Turkey attempted to bounce Russia in Rumania. So the good news is that Russia gets a build, likely in Sevastopol. That should keep Turkey at bay for a little while.

My planned builds are:

F Trieste
A Budapest

Thoughts or concerns?
I didn't have time to write it but I was not surprised England forced Norway (and left Belgium alone)... and I'm not sure what France is up to yet, either - his builds should reveal a lot.
I thought that the decision to leave Warsaw alone was good, I figured he would cover that as well... but I honestly might have been less friendly and moved to Rum in hopes of bouncing him out and keeping him down to no builds. Nothing wrong with support into Rumania, though. It honestly would have depended on what kind of mood I was in! It's always a tough choice between helping out the bot that's tactically vulnerable or trying to stomp them. But helping him out might have been the better choice as to keep Turkey from having an easy time of getting it as well? Hard to say. Even though Turkey went for Rum, I've seen early bot R/T conflicts iron themselves out in a hurry, too.

As far as the builds go, generally I tend to hold off on building fleets because I don't know how the Italian bot will react... but that doesn't mean your builds are "wrong" to any degree, either. I assume your next target is Bulgaria?

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