You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

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swordsman3003
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You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#1 Post by swordsman3003 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 pm

A provocative title for a thoughtful article! The style is different too: a dialogue between two players!

You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening {A Diplomacy Dialogue}

I've already heard some really positive feedback about the advice. I also wonder what you might think of the style?
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dipperjay
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#2 Post by dipperjay » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:26 am

Very insightful, definitely opened my mind about Turkey’s tactical options. I wonder what you think about it’s usefulness in gunboat?

And I loved the format!
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Mercy
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#3 Post by Mercy » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:07 am

I find myself in agreement with this article, but not with the title. ;) I have used this opening in the same circumstances swordsman recommends it. So far I have both followed it up with an attack against Russia and with a Juggernaut that DMZs the Black Sea.

If this article changes the meta in favor of this opening, I can say I used it before it was cool!
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Octavious
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#4 Post by Octavious » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:09 am

I'm going to be honest and say that to me this looks like a textbook example of planning after the event. You think to yourself, not unreasonably, "I'll try something a bit different this week", and then it goes tits up and you spend quite a bit of time trying to justify why you did it in the first place with increasingly elaborate explanations.

I tend to break the start of Turkey's game into a binary choice. Attack Russia or not. If you're going to attack Russia you need to have some degree of confidence that either Italy or Austria (preferably both) are occupied by the sort of personalities who would consider helping you, and it greatly helps the decision making process if Russia is occupied by a bit of an arse.

In my experience, when attacking Russia there's no substitute for making it obvious that that's what you're doing. It dramatically increases your chances of attracting support from Austria or Italy, and it increases the chances that the Western powers will smell blood and conclude that Russian appeasement is less likely to have a long term pay off. A neutral opening does little to inspire the confidence that a nervous Italian needs to not consider you his primary threat. Giving yourself the ability to deploy two Mediterranean fleets, far from being flexible, merely helps cement the idea in the Italian mind that two fleets will be built and that they're coming for him.

I'll never say that an opening should never be used, but it would take a pretty unusual set of circumstances for me to opt for this one.

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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#5 Post by President Eden » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:27 am

Love this opening, although I think it’s better to hold in Smyrna rather than move to Ankara. It shouldn’t make a difference in >99% of games, but A Smy is strictly better tactically than A Ank, and holding looks more deliberate than moving to an unconventional province.

I do think this is “the future” for Turkey in gunboat, at least for now. Turkey has badly needed a way to get both fleets into the Mediterranean in 1902 while not surrendering Black Sea in S1901. And it preserves the surprise attack on Russia, and avoids sounding the alarm on that attack unlike the Armenian Assault. This is the way forward.
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#6 Post by Mercy » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:10 am

I disagree, Octavious. I would agree that ideally, you find an ally in Spring 1901 who you trust and who trusts you in turn, and together you work out the optimal moveset for the both of you. If you fully trust Russia, you can move Ank - Con. If you fully trust Austria, you can move Smy - Arm. If you trust Italy to attack Austria, you can move Smy - Con. However, you are not always living in an ideal world, and I think this moveset is good in that case. I will grant you that the title is off; it is not the best moveset, but I consider it to be the best moveset under certain circumstances, which are met quite often. Swordsman says so in his article too.

FYI: The last time I myself have used this moveset was in a public press game, where negotiation happens but people typically don't commit themselves to alliances early on, since everybody would be able to read along.
Octavious wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:09 am
A neutral opening does little to inspire the confidence that a nervous Italian needs to not consider you his primary threat. Giving yourself the ability to deploy two Mediterranean fleets, far from being flexible, merely helps cement the idea in the Italian mind that two fleets will be built and that they're coming for him.
Or alternatively, the Italian will think a Lepanto wouldn't work and tries to negotiate something with you to prevent you from building those fleets; ideally he would decide to do a moveset that would convince you he is not going for a Lepanto in order to persuade you to not build those fleets. But if the Italian player is thinking like you said, wouldn't this same player have the mindset to attack Turkey anyway in case a Lepanto seemed possible to work?
President Eden wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:27 am
Love this opening, although I think it’s better to hold in Smyrna rather than move to Ankara. It shouldn’t make a difference in >99% of games, but A Smy is strictly better tactically than A Ank, and holding looks more deliberate than moving to an unconventional province.
Yes, I like to hold with Smyrna too.
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tr1285
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#7 Post by tr1285 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:31 am

Thank you for this article. I've been close to posting a question about Turkey's diplomatic options. It seems to me too often his three neighbors are just trying to knock him out early.
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RoganJosh
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#8 Post by RoganJosh » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:35 pm

Nice article, guys.

With the Smy > Ank move, I find this opening to be extremely pro R.
* Sev > Arm means slingshot juggernaught
* Sev > BLA means T is set up for moving the fleet to Con in F01
* Sev > Rum means T was let down by R but without any immediate way of retaliating.

The Smyrna H is more interesting, but with the expected BLA bounce, I would still say that this is a pro R opening.
President Eden wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:27 am
I do think this is “the future” for Turkey in gunboat, at least for now.
At least in high-level gunboat, the A/I vs R/T battle is extremely common, and with the standard moves it is A/I that has the upper hand. So Turkey does need to do something different. This opening seems to cement the A/I vs R/T fight, but maybe tilting the scale in the favor of R/T. I'm not sure.

T of course has another option: Smy > Arm and a full (faked?) early attack on R, with the purpose of enticing an I attack on A.
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swordsman3003
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#9 Post by swordsman3003 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:31 pm

I can tell you from a few years' experience that blog posts with outrageous titles get about twice as much readership (and triple the comments) as posts with practical or whimsical titles.
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#10 Post by President Eden » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:51 pm

President Eden wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:27 am
A Smy is strictly better tactically than A Ank
Caught myself lying, A Ank can be convoyed if you take Black Sea. And I don't particularly value moving an army to Syria in A01, so Ank may actually be better just in case you get to take Black Sea. You can end up in the same position as opening Smy -> Con by supporting a convoyed attack on Romania.

Regardless I think keeping the army out of Constantinople and Armenia for S01 is best. Armenia commits against Russia too early given the very pro-A/I meta. Constantinople blocks the fleet in Black Sea, reducing the tactical strength of the R/T alliance against A/I.
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A_Tin_Can
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Re: You've Never Used Turkey's Best Opening

#11 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:34 am

Nice article, although I have one small correction - Smy->Syria is Turkey's best opening.
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