France vs Austria Bot Challenge

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dipperjay
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#141 Post by dipperjay » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:20 am

MerryBBuck wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:53 pm
After my long match, I searched and found 98 bot matches that went to 1910+. (Including both Austria and France). Of those, the bot has won 8, drawn 8, and lost 82.
So that's the answer, just wear the bot out until it gets tired :)
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Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#142 Post by Doug7878 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:03 am

@MerryBBuck:
...and my own contribution, which took to 1919: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=338911
Its interesting that Fairbot doesn't recognize a relatively simple situation where an easily accomplished tactical retreat to a stalemate line gets him a draw, such as at the end of your game.
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Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#143 Post by Doug7878 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:22 pm

A skillful win by MerryBBuck as France against Fairbot. Its not easy to beat this bot at this point, playing as France. The bot did open with the fleet to Venice ("anti-Alpine" I think they call this), rather than south, which may have been a small break at the start, but Merry won with purely skillful play from there.

Congrats.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#144 Post by Doug7878 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:58 pm

And another beautifully played game by MerryBBuck. Merry opens south ("Alpine") F BRE>MAO, A PAR>BUR and A MAR>PIE, while Austria opens with F TRI>ALB, A VIE>TYR and A BUR>RUM ("Porcupine").

Merry swings the southern Army north (by way of Vienna!) and captures Germany while taking Tunis with two fleets. The bot's fate is sealed and Merry bags another win. Great job !

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#145 Post by Doug7878 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:30 pm

MerryBBuck now has four wins as France against Fairbot since all other players have won a single game. Quite an achievement.

He changes his opening again in this game, moving F BRE>ENG along with A PAR>BUR and A MAR>PIE. Fairbot opens with the fleet to ALB ("Porcupine") once again. Its not an easy win, but Merry gets it done in the end.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#146 Post by Doug7878 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:34 pm

...and svkris gets a win as France against Fairbot. First win by anyone not named MerryBBuck in the last 34 games.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#147 Post by Doug7878 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:05 pm

A nice first win as France by azcat1990 :

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

... and MerryBBuck just keeps the wins coming :

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#148 Post by Doug7878 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:58 pm

In the last 100 games in which webDippers gallantly challenged the Austrian bot, we have had 15 wins:
gameID webDipper
339549 azcat1990
339547 MerryBBuck
339444 svkris
339405 MerryBBuck
339330 MerryBBuck
339282 MerryBBuck
338944 Superwerty
338941 Randaz20
338911 MerryBBuck
338878 dipperjay
338834 Randaz20
338833 Superwerty
338619 Doug7878
338492 MerryBBuck
338438 zultar

Total wins by webDipper:
6 - MerryBBuck
2 - Superwerty
2 - Randaz20
1 - azcat1990
1 - svkris
1 - dipperjay
1 - Doug7878
1 - zultar

azcat1990
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#149 Post by azcat1990 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:06 pm

I just went back to my game and walked through it because I recall being surprised about getting St.Pete. In S03 he advances Sev-Mos. But then in F03 & S04 Moscow holds. 'He' could have taken St.Pete or bounced me in those turns.

In S07 he could have taken Berlin if he'd have tapped Munich, but was too distracted by the commando raids in Venice and Greece.

Also is it normal for the bot to support the other side in an ack of a stalemate line? He didn't do this in Germany but his A Livonia was supporting my Fleet in St.Pete pretty much from 05 onward
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MerryBBuck
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#150 Post by MerryBBuck » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:53 pm

azcat1990 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:06 pm
Also is it normal for the bot to support the other side in an ack of a stalemate line? He didn't do this in Germany but his A Livonia was supporting my Fleet in St.Pete pretty much from 05 onward
I have seen Fairbot inconsistently support my units across a stalemate line. I have also seen the same Fairbot unit sometimes support & sometimes attack.

I just beat Fairbot again because it wouldn't fall back to a stalemate in Russia:
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=339742
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MerryBBuck
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#151 Post by MerryBBuck » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:04 pm

azcat1990 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:06 pm
I just went back to my game and walked through it because I recall being surprised about getting St.Pete. In S03 he advances Sev-Mos. But then in F03 & S04 Moscow holds. 'He' could have taken St.Pete or bounced me in those turns.
That is a weird one. Seems like a fatal, unforced error.
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Sodium Telluride
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#152 Post by Sodium Telluride » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:51 am

Hey, I did it! I actually beat Fairbot! Only took like 50, but still! I'm still a newbie, so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know!
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... ocache=690
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MerryBBuck
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#153 Post by MerryBBuck » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:51 am

Sodium Telluride wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:51 am
Hey, I did it! I actually beat Fairbot! Only took like 50, but still! I'm still a newbie, so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know!
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... ocache=690
Good work. Persistence pays off. Welcome to the Bot-Killer club!
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Sodium Telluride
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#154 Post by Sodium Telluride » Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:47 pm

MerryBBuck wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:51 am
Sodium Telluride wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:51 am
Hey, I did it! I actually beat Fairbot! Only took like 50, but still! I'm still a newbie, so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know!
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... ocache=690
Good work. Persistence pays off. Welcome to the Bot-Killer club!
Thank you! I'll probably start and try to take on Austrian Fairbot. Any tips from the best bot-killer out there?

MerryBBuck
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#155 Post by MerryBBuck » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:22 pm

Sodium Telluride wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:47 pm
I'll probably start and try to take on Austrian Fairbot. Any tips...
The bot seems to open with Porcupine (Tyr, Alb, Rum) about 65% of the time now. The France opening that beats Porcupine most often is Alpine (MAO, Bur, Pie). With Alpine-vs-Porcupine, if France has a SC disadvantage in Fall '02 in this scenario, France will almost always lose.

I hadn't played FvA until this bot. But based on playing it a lot, it seems to me that FvA is a bit like Checkers. The key seems to be knowing the opening moves, having a mental database of the end-game scenarios, and then finding ways to guess or force the bot into a known end-game pattern.
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#156 Post by Sodium Telluride » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:57 pm

MerryBBuck wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:22 pm
Sodium Telluride wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:47 pm
I'll probably start and try to take on Austrian Fairbot. Any tips...
The bot seems to open with Porcupine (Tyr, Alb, Rum) about 65% of the time now. The France opening that beats Porcupine most often is Alpine (MAO, Bur, Pie). With Alpine-vs-Porcupine, if France has a SC disadvantage in Fall '02 in this scenario, France will almost always lose.

I hadn't played FvA until this bot. But based on playing it a lot, it seems to me that FvA is a bit like Checkers. The key seems to be knowing the opening moves, having a mental database of the end-game scenarios, and then finding ways to guess or force the bot into a known end-game pattern.
Alright, thank you! I'll try it!

Doug7878
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#157 Post by Doug7878 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:22 am

Can someone confirm that bots will automatically DRAW the game if the live player votes DRAW ? I just started a game and voted DRAW immediately, and the game immediately ended in a Draw.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=340350
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Sodium Telluride
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#158 Post by Sodium Telluride » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:29 am

Doug7878 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:22 am
Can someone confirm that bots will automatically DRAW the game if the live player votes DRAW ? I just started a game and voted DRAW immediately, and the game immediately ended in a Draw.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=340350

From what I have seen, yes. The bot will draw when the player draws in all of the times I've seen and done it
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dipperjay
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#159 Post by dipperjay » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:36 am

Sodium Telluride wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:29 am
Doug7878 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:22 am
Can someone confirm that bots will automatically DRAW the game if the live player votes DRAW ? I just started a game and voted DRAW immediately, and the game immediately ended in a Draw.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=340350

From what I have seen, yes. The bot will draw when the player draws in all of the times I've seen and done it
No, it won’t, in my experience. I don’t know the exact specifics, but here are a few things I know: if you cancel or draw the game in the first two years (I believe up to and including A02), the bot will draw or cancel. In later years, the bot won’t cancel and it will only draw if it hasn’t gained any SCs for a number of turns. In my experience, it is incapable of looking ahead, i.e. it will draw even when it has an unstoppable path to 18, it might be purely based on a simple algorithm from recent numbers.

This has been my experience in both classic and 1:1 bot games so far, but happy to stand corrected.
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Sodium Telluride
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#160 Post by Sodium Telluride » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:04 am

dipperjay wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:36 am
Sodium Telluride wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:29 am
Doug7878 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:22 am
Can someone confirm that bots will automatically DRAW the game if the live player votes DRAW ? I just started a game and voted DRAW immediately, and the game immediately ended in a Draw.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=340350

From what I have seen, yes. The bot will draw when the player draws in all of the times I've seen and done it
No, it won’t, in my experience. I don’t know the exact specifics, but here are a few things I know: if you cancel or draw the game in the first two years (I believe up to and including A02), the bot will draw or cancel. In later years, the bot won’t cancel and it will only draw if it hasn’t gained any SCs for a number of turns. In my experience, it is incapable of looking ahead, i.e. it will draw even when it has an unstoppable path to 18, it might be purely based on a simple algorithm from recent numbers.

This has been my experience in both classic and 1:1 bot games so far, but happy to stand corrected.
It seems I was wrong in Classic bot games, but I have personally found that whenever you want to draw in 1v1, it draws. I did a whole bunch of bouts against Fairbot and when I wanted to draw, most times it would draw. The other times if you removed the draw vote and reinserted it when both you and the bot have not entered orders. I am by no means an expert on this either, and someone else could either disprove me or back me up, that would be greatly appreciated.
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