How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

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Matticus13
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#21 Post by Matticus13 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:20 am

Chaqa wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:30 pm
cdngooner wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:29 pm
Wow, that sounds cool, Chaqa, particularly if there were a press version. I'll look into it. Thank you.
Generally I organize the games. I don't think I'd play a press version, but I could help advertise it and line you up with some decent players. There's a Lusthog thread in the New Games section you could bump, or I could make a new thread.
We were part of a Lusthog style press game, Chaqa. Ssorren organized it, but it got cancelled by 1903 because a player got banned (then was unbanned later...). I don't know if ssorren is even active anymore, but the first two years were fun on a bun.

I've played in several of the GB versions with Chaqa. They usually get quite hairy, especially when I play....

@OP: When I first began playing Diplomacy, playing for the draw was normal. Now, not so much.

Like Herm Edwards said: "YOU PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!"
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#22 Post by Chaqa » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:14 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:20 am
Chaqa wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:30 pm
cdngooner wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:29 pm
Wow, that sounds cool, Chaqa, particularly if there were a press version. I'll look into it. Thank you.
Generally I organize the games. I don't think I'd play a press version, but I could help advertise it and line you up with some decent players. There's a Lusthog thread in the New Games section you could bump, or I could make a new thread.
We were part of a Lusthog style press game, Chaqa. Ssorren organized it, but it got cancelled by 1903 because a player got banned (then was unbanned later...). I don't know if ssorren is even active anymore, but the first two years were fun on a bun.

I've played in several of the GB versions with Chaqa. They usually get quite hairy, especially when I play....

@OP: When I first began playing Diplomacy, playing for the draw was normal. Now, not so much.

Like Herm Edwards said: "YOU PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!"
Ssorenn got banned awhile back, so I do not think he's active now.

I vaguely remember that game. I can be convinced to play press now and then if the phases are long enough (like 2 days minimum)
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#23 Post by jay65536 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:54 pm

OP has gotten some good perspectives so far but I’ll add mine because like the OP, I am a serious poker player (though I’ve been a serious Diplomacy player for longer).

To the OP: I would say you’re looking at this wrong from a “mental game” perspective. In both poker and Diplomacy, when someone is playing in a way that you consider to be bad, the question to ask is, how do I beat someone who’s playing this way? Put in more poker-specific terms, you shouldn’t look at drawmongers as cheaters, but as donkeys.

In the case of people playing for agreed 2way draws, you have to be able to sniff them out at the beginning of a game—either to ally with one, or rally the rest of the board against two. This is understandably frustrating when you join late, but look at it this way: whether or not one of the two opponents takes their solo, you still lose. Your result was seemingly unaffected.

And like someone else said, Diplomacy ethics don’t match up with poker ethics. For example, in poker, angling is illegal. In Diplomacy, angling is more than 50% of the gameplay!

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#24 Post by cdngooner » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:15 pm

Jay: my poker analogy isn't about bad players. I agree, you can't complain about bad play, you just have to beat it. My poker analogy was about soft-playing or chip-dumping -- an agreement for one player to take it easy on another, or to lose on purpose to another -- both of which are illegal in poker.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#25 Post by Sploack » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:27 pm

I'm currently on my 14th game of diplomacy, so I'm still pretty inexperienced, but I think it's against the spirit of the game not to aim for the best result possible.
That said, here's my personal experience on 2-way draws, I think it might be funny.

I get Germany in a game, ally with Italy from the very beginning, and conquer all of France in a very short time. Me and Italy at this moment discuss possible draws between me, him and another power (Russia or Turkey). He even suggests a 2-way draw, but it's still early to think about it. Later, Austria is completely destroyed, France and England are mostly destroyed, and Italy proposes to draw with me and Russia. I say to him that I really dislike Russia, because he lied to me and rarely responds to messages. We should take him out and go for a 2-way draw. All that about Russia is "technically" true, but did I mention i was bigger than Italy and had more room for expansion? So we gang up on Russia, and Italy says he should get Warsaw to keep the situation even if we want to go for a 2-way. Sure, even... So with my 2 or 3 units surrounding warsaw i support Italy in. You know, to keep appearances. So Italy gets warsaw that turn and goes up to 12 centers. I, on the other hand, take moscow, st.Pete, norway, Liverpool and Edinburgh, reaching 17. Italy sent me a message asking for an immediate 4-way draw (France was still alive in Portugal). Then I just retook warsaw. My first solo in a full press game, exploiting this 2-way draw mentality some players have.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#26 Post by cdngooner » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:52 pm

Great move Sploack! That is the problem with a 2-way draw. They are inherently artificial as it is practically impossible to engineer an exact 17-17 split without either party having a chance to stab for the solo.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#27 Post by cdngooner » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:30 pm

This game has now (finally) come to its miserable conclusion. 17-17 (quelle surprise). http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=309034

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#28 Post by seth24c » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:41 pm

Ah with one of the same players who wouldn’t even return press in a game because they already decided to ally with someone else. It is each players prerogative to play how they want but it can certainly be frustrating.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#29 Post by Sploack » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:46 pm

I read the public press of that game, just out of curiosity. I shouldn't have. Such arrogance from Austria, I'm sorry you had to bear with him for the duration of the game. I guess he's happy not winning. Sucks to be him.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#30 Post by Octavious » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:18 pm

Kind of appropriate that Austria's name could be considered rhyming slang.

Oh, and Italy in many ways also has an appropriate name :razz:
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#31 Post by jay65536 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:46 pm

cdngooner wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:15 pm
Jay: my poker analogy isn't about bad players. I agree, you can't complain about bad play, you just have to beat it. My poker analogy was about soft-playing or chip-dumping -- an agreement for one player to take it easy on another, or to lose on purpose to another -- both of which are illegal in poker.
So for now, let’s put aside the fact that the ethics of poker are significantly stricter than the ethics of Diplomacy. I think your analogy is a bit off from a poker standpoint.

In poker, soft-playing is only illegal if it is pre-meditated collusion. So if you’re sitting at a table and you see two guys check down their hands that look like they should have been bet, you don’t necessarily know that’s cheating, right? They could be cheating, by having made an arrangement before sitting down, or they could just be scared money. If it’s the latter, their play is not illegal, even though it’s the same action as if it were. It’s just really fishy, and it’s on you to exploit those players.

Same goes for the situation here. In Diplomacy, as someone else already pointed out, the ethical line is also set at “pre-meditated”. If two players enter a game not knowing anyone, strike up an alliance, and then for whatever personal reason choose to take a 2way over a solo, that is extremely annoying and frustrating to watch, but it is not unethical. You just have to “prove it over the board” that their play is inferior.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#32 Post by cdngooner » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:34 am

Leaving Diplomacy aside to just talk about poker, at my casino softplaying is illegal. If you check the nuts in position on the river, you will be penalized. Happened at the WSOP too (https://www.cardschat.com/f13/soft-play ... op-164248/).

Analogy: if you have 17 centres and can take the 18th but don't.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#33 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:38 am

What about your honour, sir? If you start a game with an ally and pass together all the game and the hard parts and get to the end if you then betray him you are honourless.
I know the answer before even I submit this post. I am not a good player and I will never be so I have to play for the draw. Not the case, I recall two games in which I waited for my ally to take the last SC so to draw. Because this is the honourable thing to do, we have dignity besides the skills of one - any - game.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#34 Post by Octavious » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:32 am

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:38 am
What about your honour, sir? If you start a game with an ally and pass together all the game and the hard parts and get to the end if you then betray him you are honourless.
I know the answer before even I submit this post. I am not a good player and I will never be so I have to play for the draw. Not the case, I recall two games in which I waited for my ally to take the last SC so to draw. Because this is the honourable thing to do, we have dignity besides the skills of one - any - game.
Honour demands you play to win. To not do so, to settle from the start for simply preventing others from winning, shows the other 6 players great dishonor and is an insult to the time, effort, and good faith they have invested in the game. To assume that your ally will act in a similar dishonorable way shows them a huge amount of disrespect.

When you choose not to win you are elevating your own desires far above the enjoyment and satisfaction of your fellow players of the game. It is selfishness, pure and simple. If that is what you call honourable behaviour then I strongly suggest a reevaluation.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#35 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:39 pm

Not what I said. If you get there with no ally or with someone who occasionally had been on your side, go on and eliminate him. But a steadfast ally who stood with you from 1901 to ie 1910? It is not honourable, there is no denying it.
Players expect you to play to win but they expect and hope that you also have a code of honour.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#36 Post by teccles » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:58 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:39 pm
Players expect you to play to win but they expect and hope that you also have a code of honour.
Some do. Many don't. Personally I play to win, and I expect and hope everyone I play with does the same. I think that makes for a very fun game, because it leads to a more dynamic alliances, and to have to do lots of interesting thinking to keep an alliance safe.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#37 Post by Octavious » Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:53 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:39 pm
It is not honourable, there is no denying it.
I deny it.
PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:39 pm
Players expect you to play to win but they expect and hope that you also have a code of honour.
Indeed so. I don't, however, believe that what you describe resembles in any way the code of honour of most players.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#38 Post by Sploack » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:08 pm

In a game I recently had I was England and in the game I had almost reached a stalemate position with a Russia-Austria alliance. They knew that, if they betrayed each other, that would lead to me soloing, so they would never do it. There was also a French player reduced to just one center (after I had stabbed him and taken everything else from him). In the last year of the game, I could have taken one center from Russia, reching 16, while Austria could have taken the last French center. After that, we would have been forced to draw. This was SoS scoring, so i would have gained a few more points, as would Austria, from these moves. We instead drew the game, right then and there. I renounced those points to let France, my long standing ally in that game, survive. Better yet, he was part of the draw. The price to pay was very little, and i couldn't win anyway. I would argue this is an "honourable" behaviour from me and Austria. Sparing France if his last center would have been my 18th would have been disrespectful though.
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#39 Post by cdngooner » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:06 pm

That is different, Sploak. I have also agreed to a draw when I had 16 or even 17 centres, when there was a risk that I would be attacked by the other two and lose centres. This is particularly true in SoS scoring. Agreeing to a draw when its the only option or where you face losing if you do not draw is absolutely fine.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#40 Post by Sploack » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:27 pm

Yeah, I meant that I felt that our behaviour towards the French player was "honourable", since Prince William and others were arguing about what constitutes being honourable in diplomacy. I don't consider "honourable" going for a 2-way draw no matter what though, so I think we agree :)
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